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marty.sasaki Inner circle 1117 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-22 09:35, RJE wrote: You might be right. I guess I'll never know. I hope I didn't insult them. It wasn't a big venue, and I tried to be discreet, so in the worst case they think I'm a jerk, I didn't expose anything.
Marty Sasaki
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA Standard disclaimer: I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys occasionally mystifying friends and family, so my opinions should be viewed with this in mind. |
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sb Special user 567 Posts |
If you were at a Copperfield, Burton, or Siegfried & Roy show, would you mention to them that they flashed?
"Gee, Mr. Kotkin, I really liked the show, but you should ..." By saying something like this to a performer after a show is disrespectful. scott |
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Magicjg Elite user 477 Posts |
-I think its entirely dependent on your relationship with the performer. Are you friends with them? Have you spoken a word to them prior to this? My belief is the fact that if a performer is that bad, they will find out soon enough from either A) and ignorant spectator that will scream out " The coin is in your hand!" or B) the fact that they will not be rehired again because there magic was obvious.
-As a performer, starting off, I thought I was amazing. I new how to do the trick, I performed it in my room in a mirror so obviously nobody else knows how it works. The day I started recording my show I realized that I was a moron. I was performing the Gene Anderson Newspaper tear at the time. I had a girl taping my show stage left. As I revealed the paper, there you could see the trick, hanging in plain site. The bad part was the fact that the girl taping wasn't extreme stage left either, she was more towards the center of the theater. Wow what a shock watching that! -Do I think it was wrong to approach this magician even though nobody else was around and you were also a magician. Kind of. I mean look at your above statement Marty " I know that when I perform (not often) but I want to know when I do something both good and bad." Could this performer see you as a hobbiest trying tos how him up. I'm guessing so, because even you stated that you rarely perform. But on the other hand, do I think this performer needs to face reality and realize he isn't that good. Yes. So it's a double edged sword. I was recently reading an article that change my perspective on other performers. Prior to this article whenever asked about Criss Angel I would state " I can't stand him, he rips people off blah blah blah". This article basically made the obvious statement " if you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all". The reasoning behind it is this. If someone is askign you about this performer, more than likely they like them. This performer is actually helping your image. If you don't have anything to say about him bluntly say "yes I know of him". that's it. I guess what I'm trying to say is the public will weed these guys out. If self realization doesn't occur through video recording, then an outside source will eventlly drop a performes ego to ground level. If you want to be that outside source, then be it, but realize there maybe consciences. -I have heard stories about the Professor Dai Vernon being bluntly honest. A story I heard once involved a young magician who idealized Vernon. At the magic castle this kid performed what he though was an amazing act. Afterwords he approached Vernon and, looking for praise asked " what did you think"? Vernon looks at him and says " Kid, that was HorseSh*t, you should be ashamed of yourself and never perform magic again" ( keep in mind I heard this story from a good source, but over time I'm sure the words have been changed). The kid leaves crying. The moral of the story is the fact that some people see Vernon as the second coming of Jesus, others can't stand him. So opinions are usually at either extreme, not in the middle. This post seems to have received a ton of attention. Keep it up! |
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KidMagic Regular user Bradford 183 Posts |
Great sub trunk routine! Awesome stage presence very funny!
Zach |
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sb Special user 567 Posts |
Maybe before someone says these types of things to a performer they should ask themselves "whats the point?"
Am I saying this because: 1. I want the performer to know that I am a magician too? 2. I want to point out their flaws? 3. It'll make me feel better about myself? 4. I want to give the guy something to think about on his way home? 5. Because as a part time hobbiest, I really think that I am better than this other guy. "I would never flash during that routine". 6. I truly want to help them? ***If this is really the case ( and I suspect that deep down, its not!) then random critiquing is not the way to go! Especially directly after a show! Especially if they did not ask for your help! and especially if they don't know you from "uncle joe who has this great trick with 21 cards". "whats the point?" scott |
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Bernie Balloons Elite user N.Y.C. 480 Posts |
I had the same magician do this to me twice The first time was 10 years ago at a fair and it was my first paid clown gig and he up staged me with balloons Then a few weeks ago I was doing some close up and walk around magic (yes as a clown ) So he was their and for some reason and started doing a boring coin trick .No body cared It was a real snooze fest So I pulled out a Quarter and threw it on the floor he thought it was his.When he went down to get it I kicked him so hard in the A@$ I waited 10 years for this chance Everyone just laughed and I felt better about my self .Thank God for big clown shoes
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I would certainly not offer unsolicited help. Yes 'what is the point'?
I simply say I enjoyed the show, and thank them and talk about something else. IF it was a friend of mine, same deal. IF they want the help they will ask.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-22 17:31, Dannydoyle wrote: I agree Danny. Marty, I'm sure you had only the best of intentions, but if they don't ask you, they really don't want to know. Sure, they may be insulating themselves from the truth but that's not for us to decide. Rule of thumb--only give advice if it is invited.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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dearwiseone Inner circle Portland, OR 1143 Posts |
It seems we're talking a little about feedback and there's definitely a balance between these silly "parrot guys" and a nice fellow magician offering feedback. I welcome constructive criticism at my show. It's always valuable to hear feedback, both good and bad. I'm not saying to be a parrot guy, I'm just saying I've initiated the conversation before and I think I've turned them into positive experiences. After a library show, a young man came up. He said he was a magician, I asked him if he would like to hang around and we could talk. After a few minutes, I asked him about himself, then I asked what he thought the best part of the show was, and I asked him what could use help. I thought his feedback was valuable, so I listened, thanked him, and we went about our ways.
One of the challenges of being a magician these days is the ever-shrinking list of venues where magicians can give feedback to magicians on their life performances. Video doesn't do things justice, chat forums help a little, but with brick and mortar shops disappearing right and left, it's hard to find good social circles where magicians can critique and help each other. I don't think "random critiquing" is the best thing to do, but I also think more magicians would benefit from asking for constructive criticism from fellow magicians at their performances. Personally, I think we should always try to be the perfect audience member, treating fellow performers like we would want to be treated. I personally wouldn't take magic tricks to another performer's show, but I always enjoy talking to them afterward, offering my help, letting them know I enjoyed the show (always mentioning positive things, even if there was little to mention) If they ask for criticism, I offer it when I can, but make sure it comes in the form of constructive criticism. Just my thoughts! |
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Magicjg Elite user 477 Posts |
DearWiseone,
I believe there is a giant difference between having a show and afterwords saying to a magician, what do you think. As opposed to having someone you don't know coming up to you after the show and saying " that was great, but here is what you did wrong". I have had many opportunities where I have asked people what they think. People are blunt enough, but afterwords when speaking to audience members I have said, what is your favorite part of the show. Years ago and still sometimes there are people that don't have a favorite part. To me this is horrible, obviously your doing something wrong or not being entertaining enough. -Video doesn't do justice? I agree to a point. If you really wanted video to work you would have to have a camera at every angle. You would have to be able to see yourself from every single angle possible. That is true. But!!! I think it's a huge tool. To begin with, when you are on stage, sometimes it's hard to hear audience reactions. Are they laughing, are they enjoying themselves? Having a camera in the audience lets you hear what they are saying and how they are reacting. I will be posting a better version of my sub trunk routine. Prior to the routine I tell some jokes (Which I think are funny). The first few hit, two after don't. I will be removing those immediately. If I didn't have a camera at every show, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. As I posted before a camera helped me realize that I was exposing the entire newspaper tear. I have tried to fix that, because of a camera. -As for magicians helping magicians. Some stuff I don't mind. On here for instance I don't mind some constructive criticism. It really bothers me when it turns into an ego match. The best part, reiterated by dannydoyle above involves someone telling you what you did wrong. Then you look into them and they have never performed in there lives. My favorite is when someone looks at your act, tells you what your doing wrong. You then click on there video links and realize that they have never performed in front of an audience. Video after video of this person sitting by themselves in there bedroom doing the latest and greatest card trick. Now it sounds like I am playing the ego game. But my point is, its ok to point out the obvious. If you can bluntly see something ( possibly the Raven getting stuck on my ellusionist dog dags and hanging in complete view of the audience) that is fine, point it out. BUT! Giving acting lessons yourself when you have haven't left your bedroom? - I guess this does happen in everyday life though. I have a bachelors degree in Exercise Science (for those of you that have no idea what that is, I am unemployed and in shape). I decided to perform magic years ago, so I have nothing to do with personal training. With that said, I spent years studying how to workout, that is what my degree entails me to do, exercise. I was at the gym the other day and saw a man and woman, in there late 40's. She was talking about a triathlon she would be competing in. Her husband ( easily never ran or competed in anything his entire life) is training her. She is trying to lift waits that a twenty year old shouldn't be lifting. He has her doing shoulder press behind her head ( which will completely rip your shoulder out of place). Next thing you know, she is on a treadmill running for her life. (Before I finish my statement let me give you a quick background on myself. I compete in sports my entire life. I went to a division 1 school and ran track where I was a record holding Decathlete, pentathlete and heptathlon. I ran in some of the biggest track meets in the United States. Am I saying this to show off. No just to make a point really quick.) I could have easily walked over to this couple and said " sir your doing this all wrong". But I didn't. Why didn't I? to begin with he would have been ticked off at me for butting in. He would have been embarrassed that I was "showing him up". There would have probably been a scene and from that point on I would be known as the Jerk in the gym who knows everything. How do I know this. I see it constantly. Guys butting in telling someone else what there doing wrong. 99% of the time, they have no idea what there talking about. If I saw them doing something that I honestly believed would have possibly killed her, I would have butted in. As a matter of fact I hung around minding my own business to make sure he didn't kill her. What is so different from this story and a magician coming up to someone else and telling them what there doing wrong. Nothing really. Bernie Balloons, -Great story, I would have done the same. Kid Magic, -Glad you enjoyed the video. I was in the middle of editing this video. Spent the entire day working on it, adding in the first part of the show and getting rid of some lag time ( where she is unlocking me). After I did it and posted the new video on youtube, realized that it didn't work. Nothing like wasting an entire day. If you liked that video I'm sure you will like this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4aWpj-_IXw . This was shot at a banquet I performed at in November. Footage isn't the best but you get the idea. Also edited down, such as finding someone in the audience. Had to keep interest and youtube only allows 10 minute videos. Notice the forming Afro. I just finished performing 4 straight 15 minute sets. This is the last performance and soon after this show, I decided to get rid of it. Believe me, the ladies enjoyed it but I suffer for my art. I will be posting new videos but please PM me and tell me what you like ( O my god, I'm asking for someone to tell me what they think of my videos.) I'm thinking of using these videos for a promo, interested in what parts people like and what will work. |
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marty.sasaki Inner circle 1117 Posts |
In my case, my motivation was that I had seen the performers before and wanted to let them know that I saw them flash. I'm certainly not a professional, but I like to know that I flash so that I can improve for next time. I've seen them perform before and I was in the audience to learn.
The performers in question know me by name, and know me for what I am, a wanna be. I find it interesting that folks can make judgments and draw conclusions without knowing what is going on. Maybe I was a jerk, but I wasn't trying to one up them or anything like that.
Marty Sasaki
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA Standard disclaimer: I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys occasionally mystifying friends and family, so my opinions should be viewed with this in mind. |
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Magicjg Elite user 477 Posts |
Here we go. I took the time to re-edit my video. Tell me what you think, if you think its better, if you think it stinks. Whatever!!! Also attached is a straight Jacket Routine I have been performing for some time. This took place in November. Notice the hair.
Sub edited http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eciw9mwP9w Jacket: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4aWpj-_IXw |
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Ba Ba Booey Special user In Denver, I have no less than 548 Posts |
I have seen "magicians" doing tricks in the lobby of almost every magic show I have seen in the past year. Yikes! I really hate it when I see a street performer doing a nice job, and then someone comes up to him and starts performing a trick for the street magician. Those guys need a punch in the throat.
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
One elderly magician in my area, who thinks far more of himself than we do of him, always performs during other people's shows. And I know several younger guys who do the same.
I know several good performers who would never dream of doing it, because they don't have ego issues. By the way, loved the story about kicking the magician in the butt. I might try it the next time I stage a show and have clowns trying to show me up with their puny skills.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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Outbreak Monkey New user Brisbane, Australia 59 Posts |
Excellent thread! I've seen this happen, and I feel uncomfortable and embarrassed for both the performer AND the guy 'stealing the show'. Plus I'm sure it sucks for much of the audience too, they're watching a ****ing contest between their entertainment and 'some guy'.
I'll preface my questions with two points: First - I'm a TOTAL amateur - I have performed, but not often. Usually at social gatherings in pubs and bars (there are no magicians). It was common for me to attract sizable crowds of passers by. They seem to enjoy it and my drinks are free. Second - I have never interjected, commented, or even approached another magician after a performance other than to congratulate them if they performed well. I never identify my self as a magician. So my questions are based on Marty Sasaki's interesting comment: Quote:
In my case, my motivation was that I had seen the performers before and wanted to let them know that I saw them flash. I'm certainly not a professional, but I like to know that I flash so that I can improve for next time. I've seen them perform before and I was in the audience to learn. What do you do when the magician ISN'T particularly good and they're doing something fundamentally wrong, or obvious for their layman audience? I've seen really average magicians in paid gigs, where you see the audience politely going along with them. I've never said anything, and I wouldn't dream of "showing them up" with my own performance. I even 'support' the magician when my friends go "What did you think of that?" - I mean I don't think it's my business to diminish his performance in any way - I'd hate to be in that boat if I were performing. Would you, or should you say something to them at the end of their gig? Is it OK to comment on someone else's style or ability when they are a "professional" and you're just an amateur? To date, I have never given feedback because I figure they've got to be doing "something right" to be entertaining people and be paid for it on a regular basis, perhaps I'm wrong to think there are material issues with their routine, perhaps I'm more sensitive to screw ups because in many cases I know what I'm looking for. Also, I'd feel quite uncomfortable if I felt obligated to go and give feedback - which is why I don't do it. Cheers, Monkey. |
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DanielGreenWolf Veteran user Waterbury, CT 363 Posts |
I dig this thread a bit, because when doing certain venues (like Renaissance Faires), you get a lot of "strong personalities" who will all but jump at the chance to tell you that you screwed up, even if you didn't. Sometimes they'll even pass it off as "friendly advice".
Then there is a small number of those who will perform after your show, even if you aren't a big name or doing an illusion show. It's happened to me on several occasions. Luckily, being 6ft tall and 350lbs with what seems to be green warpaint keeps a lot of EXTREME magicians' decks in their pockets. The question whether you should perform or not at someone else's show isn't a question: You Don't. That's pretty obvious. The question of whether you should give magicians tips may seem a little more murky, but it really isn't. I enjoy critique and comments of my show. I'm constantly trying to learn and do better, and there is a good group of people that I turn to when it comes to watching my show and giving me brutally honest advice. I will claw and beg them for it if I don't think they're being completely honest with me. And I wont always agree with them, but they always give me something to think about. But you see the thing is, I asked them for their opinion. I know them, know their work, and trust them for their advice. And in turn, they usually ask me for my opinion when they want it. It's mutual. When you come up to me from nowhere and give me a critique. I don't know who you are, I don't know what you've done, I don't know how long you've been doing magic, are you a pro, etc. And along with that, when you're post show, if you're like me, you're nowhere near the mindset to start dissecting your show, and probably not going to absorb information well for use later. You're shaking hands with fans, signing autographs, taking care of merchandise and thinking about breaking down the show and where to go next... not exactly the best time for an "American Idol" type rip-apart of your act. Even smaller pieces of advice aren't going to make it through. And for the person giving the critique. This may sound a little odd but, who says this magician you've just seen DESERVES the advice you're going to give him? You don't know him as a person. Maybe he's a buggar who kicks his wife before he leaves the house for a gig because it helps him get into character? Would you want to help improve his act? Even though it's unlikely, you don't know. So error on the side of caution. Don't give advice unless asked. And if you see something not to do, take it as a lesson of something not to do in your own shows and become better. |
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Outbreak Monkey New user Brisbane, Australia 59 Posts |
Yes I think performing, upstaging, interrupting, usurping - right out - Full Stop/Period/EOL etc.
What keeps drawing me back are the comments Magicjg made early on in the thread: Quote:
... Do I think it was wrong to approach this magician even though nobody else was around and you were also a magician. Kind of. I mean look at your above statement Marty " I know that when I perform (not often) but I want to know when I do something both good and bad." Could this performer see you as a hobbiest trying tos how him up. I'm guessing so, because even you stated that you rarely perform. But on the other hand, do I think this performer needs to face reality and realize he isn't that good. Yes. So it's a double edged sword. Mr GreenWolf makes some good comments. Quote:
But you see the thing is, I asked them for their opinion. I know them, know their work, and trust them for their advice. And in turn, they usually ask me for my opinion when they want it. Quote:
if you're like me, you're nowhere near the mindset to start dissecting your show, and probably not going to absorb information well for use later. Whether it's right or wrong to offer advice is one thing, whether or not you're in fact even helping if you DO is another. To accept a critique, you have to be READY for a critique. I'm an amateur everything, including photography - even thought it's mainly 'custom stock' photos, my stuff has appeared in hundreds publication all around the world, and I think I'm pretty good at it. I know how it grates my nerves when people come up to offer me advice, specially when it's of an artistic nature. I have my OWN style, when I want photography feedback I'll go to my photography friends or customers! I also cringe when I watch others give advice to professional photographers! Like I said, I personally don't engage the magician at all, unless it's to say "Well done..." if it's a crappy magician, I just leave them to themselves. I guess more specifically, my questions/comments were more angled towards obvious technical flaws - do you tell someone their silk is hanging out, or they're flashing like a lighthouse? Do you tell someone tactfully if what they are doing is not just a subtle error or an 'artistic' difference? Personally (my OPINION ) as far as my performing is concerned - I think if it was done tactfully, I'd want to know. Perhaps that's because I AM an amateur, and still learning? I think it is different to my photography here. I can correct bad photography technique later, I can tell I've made an error when I review my shots. With magic if I'm stuffing up, it's a harder problem to diagnose I can't see it from an audience point of view (easily). ie. What I do in practice might be very different to what happens when I perform (adrenalin/stress/excitement etc)... Funny though, I doubt I'd give feedback in return (I'm not that guy, I let strangers continue to walk around with spinach on their teeth and their fly down! )... I really think this is an interesting thread, with quite a few nuances that might make the difference between right and wrong. Quote:
You're shaking hands with fans, signing autographs, As far as Magic goes - when I do perform, at the end, I'm not usually shaking hands, but I sure do HAVE shaking hands! Monkey. P.S. Some might think this is just a post to get me to the Magic Café Magical '50' posts... You're right! P.P.S Though, I hope my comments are still worth while. |
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DanielGreenWolf Veteran user Waterbury, CT 363 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-04-24 04:01, Outbreak Monkey wrote: I happen to be up, which is the only reason I'm responding so quickly. Darn that occasional insomnia of mine. Again, you're better to error on the side of courtesy. The truth is, 9 times out of 10, the magician was all too aware that he flashed (if he's a competant performer) and is usually kicking himself about it mentally. A lot of times, I think I flash when apparently no one saw a thing. My point is that, if you were already aware of a mistake and someone pointed it out to you, wouldn't it annoy you more? Also, as magicians, its hard to ignore the "spectator view" of things. Just because you were looking in the right place doesn't mean the other 99% of the audience was. So to you, maybe he did flash but he might have covered it to the other people watching. That's what friends, video, and spouses (Especially mine. She catches EVERYTHING) are for. To spot the mistakes and critique. When I meant that my friends rip apart my act, I'm not just talking creatively. Technically, asthetically, etc. If they catch something, I want to know. But I ask them. So, no matter what the instance, its not appropriate to point out flaws to a magician you don't know personally. Most of the time, they won't consider it all that helpful and you might come off seeming like a bit of a jerk for pointing it out. I do find it interesting that this is the only profession where this form of greeting comes into question. To take from what the inital poster wrote, you don't walk up to Aerosmith, shakes hands and say, "Hello! Great Show! By the way, I'm a musician and it sounded like you messed up the 3rd line of the 2nd chorus on "Dream On". Just thought you should know. You're welcome!" And hey. Good on you for 50 posts and yes, there were some thoughts worth addressing so good on you again. lol |
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RJE Inner circle 1848 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-04-24 04:35, DanielGreenWolf wrote: Exactly. If you approach a magician you do not know after a show and critique what you just saw, then in the performer's mind you most likely come off looking like a jerk who is seeking attention. The performer is then often put into a position of having to respond politely which then creates the illusion of appreciating your comments. In fact, they most certainly did not. After a show, acceptable etiquette would be to say "Hi. Liked your show. I'm a magician too from ...... and I just wanted to say hello." You are more likely to get a genuine response from the performer from that. |
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