I've noticed several threads in the last couple of days with people asking about performing rights & routines.

Without fail they descend into a "you don't own the rights," and "that's stealing" discussion/argument.

I have a question for the folks out there chanting that it's unethical and wrong to take a creators design/routine/illusion etc.

How many of you have ever downloaded...I mean "shared" music on limewire/napster etc or other file sharing programs?

How many of you clear your music through the venue or through RIAA/ASCAP/BMI etc etc before using it in a show?

I'm not attacking anyone. It's just a curiosity to me.

I use royalty-free music, composed and recorded by Bill White.

I don't illegally download music.

I compose my own music for my show.

John

I steal anything that's not nailed down.

That's my right.

As far as music goes, I play old-time country music. It's all old. No copyright. Nevertheless, the German organization in charge of collecting royalties charges a fee for my performances in the clubs I play in.

It's a cruel world. I steal, the government steals, the kids steal.

"We're all thieves. Word up." --a not so famous philosopher

Here's my own ideas on this complex subject:

I steal anything that's not nailed down.

That's my right.

As far as music goes, I play old-time country music. It's all old. No copyright. Nevertheless, the German organization in charge of collecting royalties charges a fee for my performances in the clubs I play in.

It's a cruel world. I steal, the government steals, the kids steal.

"We're all thieves. Word up." --a not so famous philosopher

I ONLY steal things that are nailed down.

If the person took the time to nail it down, then it must be worth something.

I steal the nails.

I sell nails. They never work.

Also I sell suicide pills for "personal protection", but that's neither here nor there.

Something original I came up with:


Here's my own ideas on this complex subject:

I steal anything that's not nailed down.

That's my right.

As far as music goes, I play old-time country music. It's all old. No copyright. Nevertheless, the German organization in charge of collecting royalties charges a fee for my performances in the clubs I play in.

It's a cruel world. I steal, the government steals, the kids steal.

"We're all thieves. Word up." --a not so famous philosopher

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence

Life is an unwelcome interruption of the void. - Camus

I am sorry that I have had to leave so many problems unsolved. I always have to make this apology, but the world really is rather puzzling and I cannot help it." Bertrand Russell

"destroy all rational thought"
-William S. Burroughs

Shouldn't... eat peanuts... when scared.


The Magic Café's token Brief Reactive Psychotic

QQ Moar n00b!!!!111oneoneone

"You live eighty years, and at best you get about six minutes of pure magic" -George Carlin

and heres my personal feeling about this issue

It's a cruel world. I steal, the government steals, the kids steal.

"We're all thieves. Word up." --a not so famous philosopher

All rights for everything on this pages and all pages created to now are which have not been created yet are mine.

Here's my own ideas on this complex subject:

I steal anything that's not nailed down.

That's my right.

As far as music goes, I play old-time country music. It's all old. No copyright. Nevertheless, the German organization in charge of collecting royalties charges a fee for my performances in the clubs I play in.

It's a cruel world. I steal, the government steals, the kids steal.

"We're all thieves. Word up." --a not so famous philosopher

There was this flower garden near Santa Rosa, CA with a fence topped by a charged wire with a sign "DON'T STEAL MY FLOWERS!" A little boy, unable to read, climbed that fence, got shocked and fell off to break his neck. His mother cradled him tearfully while waiting for the ambulance and the boy reached out. You bet I stole a flower and gave it to him.

Yes, stealing is an ethical considerations -- but worring about someone else's ethics isn't worth ...

well stealing

for me, if someone thinks enough of one of my effects or slights to steal it -- it is a compliment. If he teaches it to a thousand others, all the better! If he gets rich off on my creation, and claims it as his own -- thank you. I will know, and that is all that matters.

1 expose=10,000 steals

100 exposes = 1 steal

Funsway because you feel good about others stealing your stuff doesn't morally justify you stealing other's material or give an excuse to other magicians to steal. In a perfect world, ethically, people should be entitled to the exclusive use of their own thoughts and creations.

You should only steal a routine if it is ethical...

Why steal, instead of be creative? My shows (over 20 of them) are entirely my own work, apart from some very minor inclusions, all of which I have permission to use. I write my own songs, scripts, and routines, and NEVER cross the line. Why? Because this is my main career, I can't afford to put it on the line for the sake of some little thing that may or may not make my show appear "better".
If anyone steals my shows, persona, or other intellectual property, I know that Equity (peformer's union) will pursue the fraudsters vigorously on my behalf. If you steal from another magician, beware - you may find yourself facing a hefty lawsuit.
We'll probably see lawsuits like this becoming more and more common, as the ethical standards of performers are dropping to new lows. But perhaps a few such cases will discourage theft amongst performers.
If you don't have what it takes to be a creative entertainer, remain an amateur. Do not steal from professionals, and don't assume that you can make a few quick bucks without actually doing any work.
I know I wouldn't want to spend my working life hoping to "get away" with illegal activities. Constantly worried that any time, I may get a solicitor's letter on my doormat!
Perhaps the way it will go, is that we'll see a massive amount of blatant plagiarism, someone will then be sued, and go bankrupt. All the other idiots who steal will then be terrified that it might happen to them, and will cease their illegal activities.
Doug

Hey Doug,

You have some great points and I agree with the goal of being creative and certainly not stealing other's material, yet I stop short of saying that it is the most important thing. I can't equate originality with quality. I've seen many original ideas that were just plain garbage... yet very original! I think quality is a better driver than originality, otherwise the LA symphony should just turn it in because everything they played at their last concert was old material! Some of it HUNDREDS of years old! You would think if they were any good at all they would have played something original, but no.

We all agree stealing from others is wrong. I'm just not sure AEA is going to go after a magician doing someone else's spot card routine. Maybe you have a precedent I'm not sure of but I haven't seen it.

We are largely self policing, and there isn't a good answer for the rampant theft of material, but relying on Equity to police non-union magic shows might be a waste of time.

Let's just work on doing great magic and calling out the thieves. It all works out in the end.

He he, Ray, your comments about the Philharmonic reminded me of my Canadian friend, who shall remain anonymous - but he's a superb percussionist, and jazz musician. He calls classical musicians "simple musicians", precisely because they are (mostly) unable to play by ear, improvise, or embellish. He has a point, the most skilled and inventive musicians in my opinion, are jazz players.
Classical musicians learn to play by rote, jazz musicians learn to play by ear. But of course, it's true that the quality of the performance is paramount.
I really can't imagine getting worked up if someone stole a close-up routine from me, it's too insignificant. But if someone were to copy my costume, scripts, performing name, or even a whole show (my Magic Island show, for instance, is a one-hour pantomime-style show), then Equity would be there to protect my performing rights. That's what they do.
It's true, largely we must rely on others to have ethics, especially in our little branch of the performing arts. Sadly, some magicians now find the concept of ethics repulsive, and see no reason why they shouldn't steal with impunity.
Doug

I do agree about jazz, having played both they are completely different approaches.

I'm still not sure about Equity's jurisdiction. If it's a union show with a LORT or other union contract, then they might have some interest in it. I've been in Equity since I was 14 but they have no jurisdiction over my variety shows. If it was a book show and used a union cast, they might have something to do with the talent but not necessarily the book. Then your performing venues would have to convert to union standards and I KNOW most magic venues won't do that.

Do you have any precedent that AEA will protect a magician if someone steals a routine?

Ray, my comments about classical music were a little tongue in cheek, I actually enjoy a lot of the music, and I used to be an opera singer (a "simple" singer!)I'm an English performer, and I really don't know much about the American branch of Equity, or AEA. But here in the UK, Equity keeps a register of performers, and will take legal action on behalf of a performer over various issues. Probably the most common is non-payment of fees. A friend of mine wasn't paid for a New Year show he did, and Equity forced the company to pay up.
They will also pursue other performers on behalf of their members, if they adopt the same stage name (assuming it's not something already in common use, like "Magic Martin".) And as I understand it, they will also protect the intellectual property of members, though of course this can be a can of worms. I'm sure they would only do so if the case was fairly cut and dried, but I really don't know for sure. Most plagiarists are clever enough to alter enough of the original performance that they can claim it's their own creation.
I do feel that the advancement of the internet has changed forever the world of performing arts. It would be a good idea if a new set of ethics were agreed and drawn up between the various magic organisations. We should aim to encourage all magicians to take the art seriously, and to learn how to make things unique, instead of just pinching someone else's ideas, routines, or complete shows, etc.
From heated discussions I've had at the Café, it's very clear that even experienced performers, as well as many beginners, simply have no clue about ethics in magic.
Doug