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xaviormagic New user New York 28 Posts |
Ok so over the years I have had, and heard, and read many discussions about magic, helping people or not helping people in magic, Asking questions about magic - so on and so forth. The answers vary greatly but in my personal experience I have met some very giving magicians, giving to the point that they would be almost willing to share their entire knowledge base with me. I am very grateful for that. I recently met Tony Chang having heard a lot about him, and I must say I was more impressed my his demeanor than his magic, although his magic was great I really liked the fact that he was open to sharing not to mention we had a great time sharing stories and cracking jokes. Prior to that I had the pleasure of meeting Eric Jones, and it was the same thing we shared ideas spoke what was on our mind and he didn't seem to hold back and also cracked a lot of jokes. Now on the flip side I have also met magicians who believe in what I'm gonna call a "supreme right of passage" where no one should ask questions, all magicians have to go on their own journey to "find" their magic. I'm not going to put my opinions of how this should be handled because to be honest I'm posing this question to understand a broader spectrum of magicians on this forum. So here it is......The question.........
Should magicians who have greater knowledge give that information to a prospective magician because of the interest and relationship built with that person, or should they just steer them in the "right" direction? Should up and comer magicians openly ask any question on their mind or should they be asking questions so they can be guided? Please only answer your Personal opinion and if at all possible please don't try to force someone into your beliefs. Thank you for taking the time. |
Mark Boody Illusionist Inner circle 1366 Posts |
I believe it all depends on what performing "level" the up & comer is on. I think being "guided" is a good idea, so they don't end up being a copy cat. The perspective magician should take what little info is given, expand it as he can, then follow up with what he has learned & get feedback, make improvements & get more feedback etc.
I don't think you should give up a whole lot of info at once. It was once said "How do you eat an elephant?" One piece at a time! So should it be with magic one piece at a time. Just my 2 cents Mark
Only he who can see the invisible can do the impossible. Frank L. Gaines
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
There was a time, not too many decades ago, in which I believed I could fairly assess a student's level of commitment, passion and interest. The same was true of an 'audience'. This is no longer true. Our culture is shifting to one of 'entitlement', applauding "being average" over actualization, learning "who to blame' over accoutability, and ...
So, my willingness to freely help a younger magician is conditional to his proving he is worth my time. I can't judge a person's technical skill from a YouTube glimpse, or character from emailed claims of past performances. I am willing to give anyone the benefit of some knowledge and teach them how to do some effects and sleights. The condition, grasshopper, is that you are willing to make a commitment and keep it. It's like hiring an employee based on an alleged degree and discovering she cannot ever be at work on time. As "the boss" my first requirement is that an empoyee has enough interest in the job and my company to follow whatever rules I put in place. Skill and passion are secondary. There was a time in which being accepted into a Magic Circle required a demonstration of basic skills, knowledge of magic history and monthly performances demonstrating application of what was learned from mentors. You get one lesson free. When you proved that you have studied the material, attempted the sleights and moves, and actually performed an effect using this 'new stuff' then you can come back for more. The question should not be "where do I find a mentor," but "how to I prepare myself to be an apt student?" For some mentors this may require a "right of passage." For others it is the ability to pay. Some will require you to share a passion for a particular type of magic. For me, the question is why I should care whether you learn magic or not? I am willing to tell anyone "what to do." If you want to know "how to do" or "why to do," you have to pay a price. That 'price' requires commitment, timely communication and a scaffolding approach to learning. The 'proof' is in your hands, never the mentors.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Quote: They should dispense knowledge how they feel best suits them. Keep in mind they may have had to find this stuff on their own journey, and so don't believe it is best to just give it away. People value what they work for.
Should magicians who have greater knowledge give that information to a prospective magician because of the interest and relationship built with that person, or should they just steer them in the "right" direction? Quote: They should ask any question they want. It will divulge their character.
Should up and comer magicians openly ask any question on their mind or should they be asking questions so they can be guided? Personal experience: Too many "up and comers" want to know what is ahead instead of how they can fix what they are already doing wrong. |
Max Krause V.I.P. I should be creating magic with my 1188 Posts |
"Give the man a fish..Teach the man to fish."
It couldn't have been said any better. I think it's best to guide them to where to find the tools. Max
ESP Woody's now available in Stage Size!
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Sixten Inner circle Floral Park, NY, U.S.A. 4654 Posts |
I befriended a new learner, and confided in him with a few methods. Due to learning of his 'true' character, after the fact, I was frowned upon. Guilty of association. Took a hard blow, with that one. This individual, wrongly, took
advantage of unsuspecting, nice people, for personal financial gain, in bars/clubs. (He was a patron, also) Now, if asked, I just 'steer'. Warmest regards, Sixten |
xaviormagic New user New York 28 Posts |
That person wasn't some one names ely or elan or something was it?
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
In the old days, nothing of value was shared until the prospective student had proved himself in some way, and there were lots of hoops to jump through before you got into the inner circles of confidences.
Mentors wanted to be sure that the person was serious, as well as responsible and trustworthy. It is different now. |
George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-08-07 13:37, Whit Haydn wrote: Wow. So true. And sad.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
David Bilan Special user Clarksville, TN 714 Posts |
Back in the "olde" days, there were no DVD's, VCR's or Tivo. It made finding a mentor a high priority (if the student was smart).
Today, it's too easy to learn the moves, but just seeing how it's done doesn't teach one how to actually be a magician. It's one of the reasons there are so many mediocre performers out there. The first lesson is free is a good philosophy. Gives the prospective student an opportunity to show whether he/she is willing to actually listen to the teacher. I am thankful so many great performers like Whit are willing to share their knowledge on the Café. To address the original question... Some magicians are better teachers than others. Some magicians have more time than others. Hard to know the person until you've spent time with them. If you are the magician being approached, there is no way to know if the person asking questions is the next Whit Haydn. Do you want to spend time finding out? Do you want to be a mentor? Not knowing the circumstances, it might not have been a good time to approach the individual. It is possible they don't want to take on the role of teacher. Bottom lime, asking questions is a matter of timing. If you don't ask, you'll never know the potential. But asking questions just before or after a performance is probably not the best time. Pointing someone in the right direction is always a good thing. Magic Clubs, shops and conventions are places to meet others who offer knowledge. and have a love of the craft. Dave
Yes, I am a magician. No I did not make my hare (hair) disappear... it just took early retirement.
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
Not bragging, but I mentored a young man of 7-8 yrs old, who was our engineer's little boy. He'd bring the boy in (I worked the night shift at a radio station), while he did engineering work.
I started him off with a piece of rope. When he could show me the THREE tricks I taught him, and do them WELL, I'd advance him to the next "level". It went that way for about a year and a half, then later, we lost touch, I was terminated. I hadn't seen him for about ten years. A few years ago, I was at a club on Fort Myers Beach, and saw a young man performing magic. I watched him for a few minutes, all the while wondering why he seemed so familiar. Then I realized, this was the little boy I mentored, and HE was fooling ME! When I realized who he was, I was SO glad I opened the "vault of secrecy" for him. I pretty much keep secrets to myself, based on the infuriating, bottom feeders of magic, who think nothing of ruining a person's livelihood (TV and internet). It's great to see someone like that boy, grow up and perform like he does. He makes money, too! He doesn't consider himself a semi-pro. He did tell me that Las Vegas was a tempting venue! LOL! Doug |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
You have to make your own assessments and your own judgments.
I never teach anyone a trick or method of any real consequence until they have proven to me that they can learn something that is moderately difficult and they can perform it without tipping the method. Early on, I made the mistake of teaching someone who had no respect for the material a couple of my own tricks. I told him to practice it for at least a week before he showed it to anyone. He immediately went to one of his friends and tried it on him. Naturally, he messed it up and exposed it. So that was his last magic lesson.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
That is an uplifting story, Doug. Not often we get to see the seeds grow like that...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
The word "entitlement", mentioned above, really strikes a chord with me.
I have mentored a number of folks in magic, both in person and online. I had one young man come to me when he was 11, and I worked with him regularly until he was about 20. He was one of my subs for my restaurant gigs, I helped him block his shows, he was my "roadie" for my bigger shows, etc. He is now married with children, and magic is more of a hobby, but every time he does perform, people leave thinking better of magic because they saw him. Another guy closer to my own age came to me shortly after he moved to this area. He had pretty good chops, but by his own admission, he was pretty weak on showmanship and presentation. He asked me to mentor him. He took my criticism for what it was intended to be--suggestions for improvement. He worked very hard to apply the things I taught him, and he improved dramatically. I'm glad I taught those guys what I could. There are others who fit into this category. Then there is the other category: People I met with once or twice, who did the same things Bill mentioned or worse. People who only wanted to know the "secrets". People who wanted to learn magic so they could make themselves look superior and their audiences look like fools. I cut those people off--permanently. Every so often, someone will contact me via email. They have heard about me through The Café, or Visions, or my blog or website. I had a young American soldier stationed in Iraq contact me, asking for some recommendations for card and coin magic, as a deck of cards and some coins were the only props to which he had access. I sent him several of my ebooks at no charge. I've had some people contact me asking if they could make payments on some of my items, and in corresponding with them it became clear that they were sincerely interested in the art and really intended to pay me over time--I gave them my stuff for free, too. Then I have people contact me with that attitude of entitlement. They have the means to pay, but expect (sometimes demand) that I give them my material for free. Their messages are disrespectful and impolite, they show no love for magic and no honor for the giants who have gone before. I am not shy about giving them a piece of my mind right before I set my email program to block any future messages from them. I have had the good fortune to be mentored (to greater or lesser degrees) by some truly wonderful people: Aldo Colombini, Paul Green, Dan Fleshman, David Roth, and Ray Grismer. Each of these men has generously given to me of their time and experience. Had I come to any of them disrespectfully and with an attitude of entitlement, I doubt that would have been the case. Respect and passion for the art go a long way in getting your foot in the door. Disrespect and an attitude of entitlement will most likely get the door slammed in your face.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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The great Gumbini Inner circle 3062 Posts |
I will say this much and I hope it helps. Everyone who has helped me to become the mentalist/magician I am today has always told me something like this "Well Eric I too have stood on the shoulders of some great men myself when I started out."
In our hearts we know when someone wants to LEARN and we know when someone wants to learn how it's done. I have been most blessed to know the people who have helped me along. Without their guidance and their helpful chats, I'm afraid I'd be about a third of the person I am today in this wonderful Art of ours. I will gladly teach "someone" what I know---but NOT just anyone. I will know what to look for or listen for. I believe we all know what that thing is that we look for or listen for. If I don't see or hear myself in the person who wants to learn---I won't teach them. To date I have taught two people and I'm very glad I did. They love magic and mentalism and have really become quite good in their own right. And when they thanked me I replied "Well, I too have stood on the shoulders of some great men when I started out." Good magic to all, Eric |
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