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MiketheMagicDude Loyal user CT 270 Posts |
Ok. So I completely understand that TV is not the most appropriate venue for ventriloquism....
...but Jeff Dunham's throat moves ....SOOO MUCH...why does he even bother? Why not just move your mouth? |
Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
I guess...it's just like doing a trick...people know it's a trick but that won't stop a magician from trying to do it the right way.
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
tacrowl Inner circle Maryland 1633 Posts |
Mike,
It has nothing to do with the throat moving - you can't stop that. The illusion is created by still lips. If your lips aren't moving and the puppet is sync'd with the sound, it creates the illusion the puppet is talking. When I started a wise man said to me - learn to do it right. When you are as famous as Edgar Bergen - then you can move your lips. Until then, the audience cares. If Jeff wasn't doing it right, he wouldn't be making millions. If you want to do puppetry and move your mouth - go right ahead. You'll figure out the difference because you will hear it from the audiences. Tom |
Neale Bacon Inner circle Burnaby BC Canada 1775 Posts |
I second what Tom said.
Neale Bacon and his Crazy Critters
Burnaby BC Canada's Favourite Family Ventriloquist www.baconandfriends.com |
Mr. Pitts Inner circle David Pitts 1058 Posts |
Also, I have to add, the 'illusion' of ventriloquism just isn't the point at all. It is a vehicle. As a magician Mike, you know how most of the magic you see performed is accomplished and yet you enjoy the presentation, the entertainment value. Would you enjoy it as much if the magician, knowing you knew the secret, didn't bother hiding the method? Ventriloquism is like a trick that pretty much everyone knows, basically, how it is done. But if it's done well, and I mean if it's done in such a way the the characters are so alive and engaging that the vent's lip control (or moving throat which, if you'll watch any other vent..it's almost universal, everybody's throat moves) becomes entirely irrelevant. The ventriloquist has caused the viewer to suspend disbelief and, even more importantly, made the audience laugh. But 'bothering' with lip control, like using different voices etc. helps the audience to forget that the puppet is not actually alive. The technique doesn't have to be entirely 100% undetectable to be effective in contributing to the overall package.
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Bob Baker Inner circle 1111 Posts |
Said beautifully by Tom and David. As a magician who is now more involved with vent, I'd add that one of the delights of ventriloquism is that it is illusion without deception. No guilt
Bob |
Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
People know that magic are just tricks but that wont stop a Roth or Rubinstein to perform with class or with finess
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
Brian Lehr Inner circle Edmonton, Canada 1605 Posts |
I was watching Jeff last night on the Comedy Channel. It was his program called "Arguing with Myself", or something like that. When he introduced his "new manager" and started doing vent with him, Jeff was actually moving his lips quite a bit. Many times you didn't notice, since the camera focused on the the dummy. But when both of them were in the frame, you could see Jeff's lips moving quite often while he was doing the vent.
Perhaps this was because it was a fairly new routine for him, and he was probably still working on it. When I saw him with Peanut and Jose Jalepeno, I didn't see any lips move. BTW, has anyone ever heard of Jeff getting in trouble for his Achmed the Dead Terrorist routine? I love it, but I can see how some might be offended. Just wondering if anyone's actually complained about it. Brian |
tacrowl Inner circle Maryland 1633 Posts |
Brian,
People have complained about Achmed. You may note that Achmed says he isn't Muslim. You can bet there is a reason for that. In South Africa, they banned one of Jeff's ring tones for cell phones that featured the puppet. In all, I'd guess he doesn't worry too much about the people that complain. You can't please everyone, and his fan base is pretty big! Tom |
TRUMPETMAN Special user Naples, FL 705 Posts |
One of the things that leaps out at me with Jeff is that he is a FUNNY guy ! He starts the act with a bit of solo stand-up monologue, proving he can gets laughs without even using a figure beside him. Does he slip up and occassionally give away the store with his technique? Yup, but the audience doesn't care because they didn't attend the show to judge his technique. They came to see him because he is funny, plain and simple. They want to laugh, and be entertained.
As performers, and especially in places like this forum, we tend to get lost sometimes in the details, and forget the big picture, which is "why is the audience there ?" The average Joe has literally no knowledge of perfect vent technique vs. weekend warrior with lips flapping in the breeze ! Bottom line is that if an act is enjoyable and appeals to millions, as Jeff's has, technique becomes one of the least noticed things in the mix. Just my two cents, but it has served me well... :) Mark
Mark Pettey
Naples, FL facebook.com/robbietheringmaster |
Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-14 13:38, TRUMPETMAN wrote: I agree with Mark
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
Ony Carcamo Special user Manila, PHILIPPINES 608 Posts |
That's what makes Jeff a true artist--he takes risks! I guess he knew even at the start there will be people who'll be offended by Achmed... but he wanted to express himself through his craft. Same with Otto of Otto and George fame. It's either you like Otto or not.
At the end of the day, Jeff loves what he's doing and millions of people all over the world love him too. And that's what matters most. |
Ony Carcamo Special user Manila, PHILIPPINES 608 Posts |
Oh, how can I forgot Edgar Bergen! Bergen took risk when he entered television. He knew too well he didn't have a perfect lip control but he did shows on TV anyway.
And because he and Charlie were soooooo entertaining, people really didn't mind Bergen's flapping lips. |
tacrowl Inner circle Maryland 1633 Posts |
It all boils down to that bottom line Mark - you nailed it!
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JimbosMagic Inner circle 1334 Posts |
If you bring your characters to life that's the illusion. You would find it really hard to watch the vent if the dummy is in motion.
JIMMY CARLO. KIDabra International Family Entertainer of the Year 2009.
IBM Triple Award Winner. Uk Champion of Comedy Magic. Represented the UK in the United Slapstick Awards on German TV. European Children's Entertainer of the year 2007/8 |
Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
But let's face it...there will always be someone who will watch a ventriloquist and check if his lips are moving...and comment about it. Most of the time , fellow performers
I had a hard time with such comments when I was starting out...but I disregarded all the negative comments and follow the advise of my friend Ony to just practice. I practiced in actual shows I was booked as a magician or emcee but decided to just do a simple vent routine and tell the client that I'm doing it for FREE. Who does not want a freebie? As for TV...I always insist for certain camera angles
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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