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mnmagic Regular user 106 Posts |
Help...
I need to open another can of worms. I have a magic baking dove pan effect I am working on and need to heat up the ingredients. My obvious choice would be a match and a piece of flash paper. Any concerns about the use of fire? I have seen Andre Kole and other prominent folks use fire in their shows without any type of disclaimer. The show is for our whole congregation not just for the kids. Your thoughts? Shawn |
James Peters Veteran user Romford, UK 385 Posts |
Shawn,
I'm over-cautious, so forgive me if this sounds OTT. If kids are present, beware. Fire and kids don't mix. They get all kinds of ideas on copying you, and before you know it someone gets hurt. Someone recently shared their experiences of stuff with kids here (link to The Little Darlings, Never Again topic) http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......7&16 Take care, James. |
BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
I think there are three good reasons NOT to use fire in a kids show.
1. Safety: Unpredictability - fire and kids are both unpredictable. 2. Potential for imitation: Kids will attempt whatever interests them. Why interest them in fire with proper overall training for them which would include letting them in on the trick and how it works. 3. It isn't necessary: You can achieve the same basic effect using lights and powder for smoke, etc. If you ask permission, you may or may not get it. And if you do not ask, you take great risk. I love to perform with fire. My fellow FCMers call me "pyro", but I am very cautious about where and when I use fire. I always have a fire extinguisher and someone who knows how to use it around. When I can absolutely control the situation, have proper sure separation from people and fixtures (drapes, etc and other flammables) and have the safety team set up, and permission from the venue, I do fire. When I do not have all of these things in place, I use FISM Flash, D'Lites, and other safe light based gimmicks to perform. Caution is better than remorse any day, when it comes to fire. BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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Steven Steele Chief of Staff 1868 Posts |
I don't use fire for any reason.
I have performed at a few places that had restrictions in their insurance policies relative to performers using fire; so I decided not to include it. It just makes life simpler. I didn't want to pay for a rider on my policy to insure the facility..costs many dollars. Steven
Coram Deo
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Brian Lehr Inner circle Edmonton, Canada 1605 Posts |
The only time I used fire in a church effect was when I caught a handkerchief on fire via a local candle. I quickly put the fire out in my glass of water. I then restored the handkerchief via the metal TT.
That was in 1990, and I simply can't remember what the spiritual story was that I told with it. I'm sure there must have been one! Brian |
mnmagic Regular user 106 Posts |
Thanks for the replies. I have decided against fire for the routine and decided to turn my church into the worlds largest convection oven.
Thanks, Shawn |
wassabi_87 Loyal user moscow, idaho 226 Posts |
The only caution I would have with fire is if it is wrong in some way, spiritually. I would have no problem doing fire tricks in the church gym. But in a stained glass sanctuary would be different. In a sense it would be sacrilege.
bike during the day,
do magic at night, and very early the next morning, homework. |
sleightofhander Special user 618 Posts |
I would have no problem with vanishing a coin or something with some small flash paper. that's about it though.
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sdgiu Elite user The Boonies, NC 456 Posts |
I never would have thought about the possible problems with fire magic and kids.
I love fire magic, and being a long time closet pyro, can't believe that I have never used it in Children's Church, but to my recollection, I haven't (thank God, literally). Thanks for the warnings guys (that's guys in the genderless sense). You're right, kids are prone to imitate, and if you see it in "CHURCH", IT'S GOT TO BE GOOD/OK, right??? Although I see nothing wrong spiritually with fire magic in any setting in church, I think there are too many other ways to get a message across, than to give one of my Children's Church kids the idea that playing with fire is a good idea. Thanks again for the warning; it has been taken to heart. Godspeed Steve zzz |
Aperazor Loyal user Akron,Ohio 244 Posts |
I understand the logic and reasons for the posts in this thread.
I just can't agree with it to the extent here. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just disagree with the prevailing desire today to make this a perfect world...ain't going to happen! Kids can choke on a sponge ball, laser light pens can blind, needle through balloon...don't even get me started, can't pass out candy treats...someone might choke or be allergic...can't set an egg can on a child’s head...might transfer head lice, spray the end of the broken wand with Lysol or wash with Purell first before handing it to a child? I don't know about the rest of the world but I sure liked life better before all the safety police got involved! Sorry if it sounds like a thread crap, not meant to be just my own personal feelings. I liked the feeling of a little risk, fear and shock as a kid and still do. I guess God would have to come up with an alternate plan for speaking with Moses...The Burning bush just couldn't be tolerated and the Holy Spirit which is usually represented as a flame? Maybe switch to a cotton ball dipped in alcohol? Thanks for listening, and sorry if this is not worded right it was just meant to be my own personal feelings. I just think that many (not all) of the tragedies that have caused the new thinking were done by...BONEHEADS but we are not allowed to say that so we make everybody stop completely. If flash paper is used cautiously and under the right conditions I believe it would be far less risky than the people lighting a cigarette or the church candles for that matter. Nick Zender-Akron Ohio |
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3226 Posts |
Aperazor,
I had to think long and hard before deciding whether to respond to your post since the question was initially asked by mnmagic. But I think you do bring up a few points that need to be addressed. I presume you are downplaying that actual danger of using fire with children and not suggesting that we shouldn't protect our children from danger. Keep in mind the posts referenced in the second post in this topic contain actual instances of events, not hypothetical ones. Some of the incidents you list, choking a sponge ball, laser light blinding someone, are real issues and are serious concerns to parents. A young enough child would put a sponge ball in their mouth and choke on it. There is no question of this. Since you can’t hide all small objects from young children, we parents do keep our children from getting hold of them. We fail at times. Most parents have taken something undesirable out of their child’s mouth. Some have ended up in the emergency room. No sane parent would give a young child a laser pointer to play with, or allow an adult to point one at their face. However, showing a child these objects is qualitatively different than showing them fire in a performance context. To address your comments about incidences of fire in the Bible, I don't show the fire to a child when relating those Bible incidents. I do tell the child about these things, but until the child is mature enough (and the age varies for every child) I wouldn’t present fire in a context that would cause them to want to start one. Small children will naturally put small objects into their mouths, but they don’t seek out to do this, rather they do this only after an object is in their hands. However, Some children will seek out to start a fire. Of course, children are exposed to birthday candles, church candles, and fireplaces. But the fire is not “played with” there. Nor is there anything “cool” about the fire in those contexts. There is a big difference between those exposures to fire, and a cool magician who creates astonishment and who gets applause after presenting a fire-related effect. Children in a magician’s audience will want to be like the magician. Most will just copy the magician in their play. Some children who know where the matches are located might go further. My younger brother had a serious issue playing with fire when he was a young child. He knew where the matches were, and he lit a fire in our basement more than once. When he got caught, he was in huge trouble. We were lucky he didn’t burn the house down. I’m sure my parents kicked themselves (figuratively speaking) for not doing a better job of hiding the matches. With 5 kids, they couldn’t be in every room with all of us all the time, and you can’t hide everything from children all the time. It is not that unlikely that a child would try to light a fire to be like a magician. I chose not to do the Tenkai decapitation (rope through neck) for small children, because I don’t want a child to put something around their neck. Quote:
I don't know about the rest of the world but I sure liked life better before all the safety police got involved! If you think these aren’t serious issues, children are burnt to death in fires they create (although more often an adult causes fatal fires) and children are killed from strangulation (or their neck broken) from something around their neck. It happens every year. Because of the movement that annoys you, now only tens of children are killed every year, instead of hundreds. You might be interested to know, that the “safety police” have only passed laws regarding strings around the neck in marketed clothing, but they have not prevented you, or anyone else from showing fire to children. However, there is plenty of literature regarding fire and children, and I strongly recommend you check it out. I think you will find it illuminating. You should be able to get it at your local fire department (or at least you could here a few years ago.) Quote:
I just think that many (not all) of the tragedies that have caused the new thinking were done by...BONEHEADS but we are not allowed to say that so we make everybody stop completely. Often child-related tragedies have been cause by people who failed to heed existing warnings regarding well-documented dangers.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
Aperazor Loyal user Akron,Ohio 244 Posts |
Excellent rebuttal,
I will definitely take your comments to heart. You made some good points, and unfortunately when I posted my comments I had failed to link off the second post and read some of the real world stories. My initial reaction was based on the idea that the flash from the paper being dangerous seemed unrealistic. I like the idea of a warning beforehand, although that seems to me like it would be again more a legal item than realistic solution. I had a stepbrother who also played with matches and started fires...more than once. We all were warned repeatedly about the dangers of fire. Sorry again I definitely would never downplay child safety... This thread has definitely given me a reason to re-think some of my original opinions. Thanks Nick Zender |
BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
Hello Nick!
It takes a good man to respond as you have. Thanks for honestly stating your thoughts on the topic, and especially for being open to the thoughts of others, and strong enough to rethink them! I see you are in Akron Ohio. Come join us some time in our Monthly Fellowship of Christian Magicians meeting in Firestone Park. You can get the dates and meeting topics at http://www.neofcm.com/ or PM me for directions. BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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Aperazor Loyal user Akron,Ohio 244 Posts |
Might just see me some time. I have lived on the bad side of Firestone Park my whole life which will be 47 years tomorrow.
Thanks again Have a Happy Holiday season Nick |
Daniel Faith Inner circle Neenah, Wisconsin 1526 Posts |
Excellent food for thought! And here I was considering using a flaming Bible.
Daniel Faith
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strugglingfool New user New York, NY 14 Posts |
I'm a little late to get in on this post, but here it goes.
Shawn, as far as Andre Kole using fire, please be aware that the local host is made aware of the fire before the show. They know what they're getting. Often, he has to get clearance from a local fire marshall. He carries fire insurance, and all of the costumes and curtains are flame-retardant. There are fire extinguishers just offstage should anything get out of hand. The risk is even smaller than it would appear to the general audience. And as far as actually using fire in a magic show with children present, I'd have to agree with Aperazor. Magic shows are full of "horrifying" effects. People get cut in half, poked full of holes, and sometimes vanish off the face of the earth. But for some reason, certain effects/routines strike a chord with parents who decide that "this sort of thing should never be done if a child is present." Children don't get enough credit. They're not nearly as stupid as adults seem to think they are. Sadly, the response to this is often, "Well a few of them might be." In attempting to "please all of the people" you're going to take most of the entertainment out of your act. |
mnmagic Regular user 106 Posts |
Hey folks,
I haven't been able to spend too much time on the Café lately but I visit once in a while to see what is going on. I agree that there are a lot of effects in a show we would not want people not in-the-know to try. For instance poking people full of holes and being chopped in half. But let's be realistic. How many kids are going to go home and build a real arm chopper and try it out on baby brother? Is it possible? Yes. Has it happened? Probably! But doing so takes time, materials and intent and lends plenty of opportunity to give adults a chance to intervene. Not to mention, the proppy look of most illusions gives most kids the impression these are from a magic shop. Fire is a different story. Fire has a mind of its own and most accidents don't happen because some kid intentionally decided to light their shirt on fire. They usually happen because kids lose control over the situation. In addition, fire in all its forms is readily available and fast to cause damage. I was a pyro as a child and am very blessed I didn't cause harm to any person or property. Actually, I still am a pyro, but much more careful and thoughtful about my actions. I have a three-year-old nephew who loves to imitate adults. I still get worked up when I remember how close he was to getting shocked when he put my keys into an electrical outlet. Another millimeter and it would have happened. Of course you can argue he is only three and that older kids know better! What about the teen last year who broke just about every bone from the waist down, jumping off a hotel building into a pool? He should have known better right? It's a risk I am just not willing to take right now. I don't want to have to live with the guilt or knowledge I was responsible for something like that. I especially think that as Christians we have to consider how our actions can affect others. I don't think it is safe enough to say that it is a parent's responsibility to monitor and correct a child's behavior and impressions. Shawn P.S. Keith where in Minneapolis do you live? |
strugglingfool New user New York, NY 14 Posts |
Quote:
How many kids are going to go home and build a real arm chopper... They don't need to if the parents own knives. Quote:
(Fires) usually happen because kids lose control over the situation. I would venture to guess that most fires usually happen because ADULTS lose control of a situation. Quote:
I have a three-year-old nephew who loves to imitate adults. I still get worked up when I remember how close he was to getting shocked when he put my keys into an electrical outlet. Okay, this one baffled me. What adult would put keys into an electrical outlet? I'm wondering who the child was imitating. And why the child had the keys. My guess is they weren't given to him by a magician during a magic show. I guess what I'm getting at is this: many kids will play with fire, whether or not they see a magician do it. You mentioned that you were a "pyro" as a child, but you didn't say if this was the result of seeing some flash paper go off. Quote:
What about the teen last year who broke just about every bone from the waist down, jumping off a hotel building into a pool? He should have known better right? Yes. Or should we blame the Olympics? (I live downtown, Shawn.) |
Rob Johnston Inner circle Utah 2060 Posts |
I like fire in acts. I have very fond memories of seeing a fire magician and juggler perform when I was a kid. It is something I will NEVER forget. I didn't go home and try it either, I understood very well not to use fire.
That is just my thoughts.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
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mnmagic Regular user 106 Posts |
Keith,
Quote:
Okay, this one baffled me. What adult would put keys into an electrical outlet? I'm wondering who the child was imitating. And why the child had the keys. Kids love keys and are smart enough to realize they go into things. We put them in doors, in cars...in all kinds of narrow slots. If you don't know how much they love keys you must not have any kids or be around them much. And yes, all the electrical outlets in my house have covers. This was in a hotel. Quote:
I would venture to guess that most fires usually happen because ADULTS lose control of a situation. As for fires and adults, I am only referring to the many kids injured every year by playing with fire. As for me being a pyro...Yes, my fascination of fire came from magicians and watching Mr. Wizard. In any case, my last post was not meant as a debate but rather the conclusion I have came to since I first posted the question last year. Since I probably won't change my opinion anytime soon, and am not out to convert the masses who do use fire, I see no reason to continue the discussion. In Christ, shawn |
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