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J.G. the magnificent Special user Griffith Indiana 886 Posts |
Their are those that dislike magic like David Blain and Criss Angel do such as floating of people or objects. Voodo ash on arm and ambitious card. Obviously the list is much bigger but those are the ones people at my Church mention alot. Saying they are dark. Some even beleive them to be real occultism works.
Yet why, satain only gives the power of spiritual warfare to my knoweldge and not of visuals or Telekenesis and mind reading. Who ever labled them as such? How is untapped mindpower demonic. It is simply a little understood science. I guess it is because people fear what they don't get. Yet people don't all fully understand electronic technology and they don't consider it demonic fearing it. Also is it possible to do effects like these without sending that message. If not I guess you shouldnt do them but if so how?
Jeremy Gates
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mralincoln Loyal user If I wasn't so busy, I'd have more than 220 Posts |
Jeremy:
I think what I posted in the thread about Christianity & mentalism applies to your question. As a long-time (albeit amateur) magician, a pastor, as well as a Bible college professor, I have a special perspective on the subject. I use gospel magic--and, yes, sometimes "mental effects"--to illustrate biblical truths. There are SO many levels at which that kind of discussion could take place. Allow me to "scratch the surface"--and maybe spark some additional postings along the same lines. Romans 12:1-2 tells us, who are Christians (born again as Jesus called it in John 3) we're to be "living sacrifices" that are "holy" and "acceptable" to God. It also says that we are not to be conformed to the way the world thinks, but that we are to be TRANSFORMED--by the "renewing" of our minds. So, our thinking should be different than other "performers" who do not know Christ. I think this is what Ed, Dan, Mark, and Craig are saying. Our first duty (and privilege, as believers) is to seek God's direction in EVERYTHING we do. As Jesus said, Matthew 6:33: 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness,and all these things will be added to you. That said, there are plenty of Scriptures that indicate that "witchcraft" and "mediums" and "spiritists" are not all phonies and charlatans. Some truly believe in what they're practicing, and some are influenced by and aided by demonic activity. Sure, some (probably many if not most) are merely charlatans; however, one cannot dismiss the existence of demonic activity if one's perspective is truly biblical. In the OT, God was INTOLERANT of such activity. Deuteronomy 18:10-14 says that such activities were "abominations" and that those who engaged in such practices were to be driven "out from before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you." And, in the NT, no less than Jesus Himself cast demons out of individuals more than once. So, demons and demonic activity is real. In addition, no one who truly believes the Bible can deny the reality of Satan--and satanic activity in this world. So, as believers, it seems logical that we are to oppose anything that might appear (and/or spark interest in/promote the) Satanic or demonic. FYI: One only has to talk to missionaries who are ministering in third-world countries to hear about the prevalence of occult practices--some practiced by deceivers--and some under the influence of The Deceiver, Satan Himself--and some, probably a little of both. NOTE: By the way, this is why I believe the practice of HYPNOTISM (turning your mind over to another's direct influence in such a manner is not only in opposition to the ideas of Scripture, but dangerous. Our minds are to be spirit-controlled--surrendered to God, not surrendered to someone else's influence. I believe to relinquish control of our minds to others via hypnosis is truly dangerous. In contrast, Paul, in 2 Cor 10:4-5, wrote: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; Our thought-life is to be under the control of the Spirit--not someone else, etc. So, given what I've said so far, does all this mean I am hypocritical, as a pastor, by doing gospel magic and mentalism effects? I don't think so. Why? Because in the way I present the magic/mentalism effects, I make it CLEAR that what I'm doing is a "trick"--it's a visual puzzle, if you will. And, I do make disclaimers, because I'm not trying to "BE A MENTALIST"--but a God-pleasing Christian delivering the message of Christ. I'm not to get in the way of that message. In contemplating it, I think disclaimers are a MUST for the Christian believer who performs mentalism, given the biblical prohibitions against those who practice the occult and the weaker believers and unbelievers alike who might be, unfortunately, mislead by what they witness in such a performance. In addition, in the postings there was mention of the idea of talents being given by God, and the idea of "someone is always going to be offended," etc.--and I understand both of these points. However, and this is where spiritual discernment and spiritual maturity comes in, as has already been stated, we must put the spiritual welfare of others before our own desire to "perform"--and if the "offense" is legitimately going to harm a weaker brother/sister, we are to choose NOT TO "offend." As Paul said about meat offered to idols--1 Cor 10:28-33: 28 But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— 29 I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? 31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do,not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved. This thread began with a question about whether Christianity and mentalism can coexist. If the disclaimers are properly made, and if one avoids causing the weaker brothers/sisters to stumble, I believe they can. However, based on what Paul said in Romans 14, if a Christian is unable to perform mentalism with a clear conscience, it is sinful for that particular Christian to perform it. That does not mean that no one can perform it--but the individual who has reservations about it needs to refrain from it. (Again, in Romans 14, Paul was inspired to write on the subject of eating meat offered to false idols, but the principles inspired by God are applicable to our discussion here.) God's Word says, in Romans 14:19-23: 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. So, from a biblical perspective, the Christian performer has much to consider when he is planning out what to include in an act, developing his persona, and his performance choices. I am a pastor doing visual puzzles (object lessons, if you will) to get and maintain the interest of brothers and sisters (and those who don't yet know Christ who are in the crowd, as well) in order to emphasize the message of the Gospel and exalt the name of Christ. To do anything that would hinder listeners spiritually is in stark contrast to my calling and purpose. Again, as God's Word says, in 1 Corinthians 10, vv. 23-24: 23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. I hope this posting answers your question, at least in part, and helps you understand the biblical perspective a bit more. |
J.G. the magnificent Special user Griffith Indiana 886 Posts |
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On 2010-01-17 02:31, mralincoln wrote: Yes it helped quite a bit however a few things you said brought some things to mind. Before I go on though I want you to know that this isn't meant as a insult to your reply but to inform. Just happens to be where my mind went after reading it. I wasnt talking about just whitchcraft, mediums and spirits. Since they do not float things or do ambitious card. Nor do they do voodo ash and things like that. The closest I have heard of those occurances is glass objects flying across the room into walls without breaking. Or scratches or other marks appearing on floors and walls. But the inablity to differ between things. Also about hypnosis, I was curious of it. So I read the baisics of it through e-books and one from the library. I found that it cannot be done unless they subconciously or conciouly want to be. Other wise you half to trick them into thinking whatever it is is agreeable. Plus it is really a science and not supernatural if you have ever studied it. I don't use it or study anything more on it. I think I should be closer in my walk with Christ before I really get into it to be sure not to go down the wrong path with it. Although it can be used for good. Like for instance you first must get someone to be on your side willing to listen. Those techniques may be used for getting the word to people. On the other hand Hitler used them and so has Obama and religious leaders. You can youtube it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCJ9v_-aJho&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bffI10DDj-c&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_QiVi3mchE&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtVGxJU-j2I&feature=related. So they must be used carfully. I still beleive the power of God can be very real at times though. Especially given things happening in everyday life out of nowhere with no human influence. Back to my point though. It may also be used for self healing to get over things. I think it has good and bad. As to use it publicly for now I would say is wrong. Since it sends to many questions and suspition. To use it on others I think is wrong unless they ask you to. You may have heard of Samuel Murphy Brodie aka The Electric Wizard considered to be Nicola Teslas only rival. He used it wrongly but also to help people that wanted it. Although for I should not mess with it at all untill I have a good walk with Christ. Which in the spirit of mental things you mentioned your mentalist acts. That you provide disclaimers and explain the deception and sciences. However what you must understand is this. I heard it from a wise clown. Yes a clown, ministering clown to be presice. Which does magic as well and presents himself as someone working with objects giving visual puzles like yourself as you stated. This doesn't sound off the sorcerer alarm which is good but. What he said was this. You can explain that it is a trick all you want but if the effect is powerfull enough they will think it is real anyway especially children given he works with children alot. You also must not let the effects be stronger than the message otherwise they think of that instead of the message. Which is also why it is important to start with the act instead of the message. Back to the remainder of this quote though. My question wasnt mainly can Christianity and mentalism coexist but rather this. Why are people deceived into thinking non supernatural things are? Mentalism was simply a good example and I guess I emphasized on it too much. However you still wrote a lot of good stuff regarding what I said and got me thinking.
Jeremy Gates
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mralincoln Loyal user If I wasn't so busy, I'd have more than 220 Posts |
Good, I'm glad it helped spark some thinking!
As far as the hypnotism, even if the spectator desires hypnotism, they are still opening their minds--allowing your suggestions--to guide them rather than God's spirit. Their relinqishing of control is not only unbiblical, but it does open them up to other dangerous influences, as well. I know you may disagree or may not understand that, but, anyway, I think you're wise to say that you desier to have a closer walk with the Lord before making a decision to pursue it. By the way, I also agree with you about the fact that gospel magic or mentalism, etc. can overshadow a message. That is a danger--especially for those more informed about magic than the Scriptures. However, I'm not sure what you meant when you said that you had to start with the effect rather than the message. I think you meant to pick a "weaker" effect to go along with a gospel message. However, I go about it differently. I think it's important to determine the message--and then to decide what effect to use to best illustrate it. And, yes, I am very careful about the timing, placement, and content of the effect, especially since I use my magical effects during sermons in church on Sunday mornings, etc. What I do must not overshadow the message. I encourage you to avoid the questionable in favor of those effects that are not. Finally, regarding your question about why people so many people believe that some effects are supernatural, that's a good question. I think many are uninformed not only about magic, but about other spiritual issues. I do think there is an inherent sense, within people, that there is a spiritual world out there--even if they are not Christians (or "spiritual") themselves. And, that part is true. So, when they see the "unexplainable"--that helps them explain it. We want to be able to explain what we see/hear, etc. I also think it is due to the unethical behavior of magicians/mentalists, etc. who refuse to provide the disclaimers--or, go even farther--by implying or indicating that they have supernatural powers. Anyway, just a few more thoughts . . . |
J.G. the magnificent Special user Griffith Indiana 886 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-01-18 02:11, mralincoln wrote: Thankyou I liked what you said about hypnotism. Even if they are informed with disclaimers and done in a tastfull scense it can still arouse curiosity. Such as it has done with me. Although not everyone has the self control I do. So it is better to just leave it for the backroom with people I know wont take it the wrong way. Also regarding my comment on starting with a effect. I was just ranting at that point I suppose but it is somthing I don't do since I don't perform for pay yet but. The clown minister said he does. Which I can see what you were saying about the message first so you can have a effecct that can back it up. However by putting the act first it can be backed up by the message as well. Like saying what I just did is like and then go on with the message. Plus of course probably doing a few effects during the message. I guess it isn't that important though as long as the message is stronger and is what they retain.
Jeremy Gates
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