Years ago you went to a lecture and learned so much and got lecture notes. Now you go and they are set to sell you their catalog of material.

I looked at Danny Archer's site and he says this:

"Danny Archer's lecture is a true lecture, not a dealer demo, all the effects are fully explained with no need to buy any special props".

How refreshing!

Thanks for the kind words Joe...

There is a difference between a dealer demo, and a lecture. Danny knows it, we know it, and it is what we do. I will not do a dealer demo at a club. Neither does Danny. We leave that to those who have nothing to lecture about other than what they sell. But sometimes there are certain mainstream items to which a lecturer has a new take, and new use to present a twist on. And I can tell you, if you do not have it there, some are very upset. Not all magic is done with xerox copies, tape and rubberbands. Quality props` are also important. As long as the focus of the lecture is not to just sell "stuff". I have done the master Classes at the Blackpool Convention, Danny has as well. We can both tell you, many use it as an opportunity to do a dealer demo. We did not, and guess what, the feedback was exactly that, thanking us for actually giving them what they expected, a master class. That is what a lecture should be.

I agree with Danny and Craig. I have done my flower lecture for years. It is an informational lecture. How to use props you have not exclusively my products. A lecture is a lecture.

I recently did a lecture for the Cincinnati SAM assembly at the request of Ken Klosterman. Absolutely nothing was sold. Not even lecture notes.

Maybe bookers for "lectures" need to inquire more about the nature of the lecture. I might add that it also mean that maybe if the true lecturers charge a little more, it is understandable. They are not going to pull any other money out of the group to pay their expenses.

Dealer demos are fun for the group but they are not a lecture.

Richard

My belief Richard is that a Dealer Demo, if that indeed is what a club does want, and some do, should be free. You do not pay to go to your Appliance store and pay to see a Vacuum demonstrated do you? Paul Gertner once said, he though the whole structure was wrong. The fee should be $1000 (or some other reasonable figure) plus hotel and expenses, but lecture notes are included. Nothing to sell, just a learning experience. But also you sell specialty items, first not readily available, and part of the reason they book you, is they know you will bring them. Not every lecture location has a nearby shop, they are getting harder and harder to find. The same goes for a silk lecture, they excpect to have that variety availble, to see, and buy, and that is one of the reasons they chose to come to a silk lecture. The Laflins filled that need, and do present a wonderful teaching experience as well. I agree, you need to adeqautely convey what the lecture is all about. Then those interested also know what to expect. Plus since we also travel quite a bit, we find items that most never would, both in uniqueness, and quality from all over the world. But also we are known for that. People look forward to it.

The one thing I cannot stand is when lectures turn out to be nothing more than live infomercials.

Buy this... buy that... this is on that DVD... this effect is $20 lecture price special... yadda yadda.

Lectures should be about teaching. People pay to attend and learn, not to sit through a sales pitch. They can go to a time share and get a free night stay for that.

Some guys for lecturers to take some lessons from:

Kozmo - his lecture is what every lecturer should strive for. Prob the most informative and mentoring type lecture Ive ever attended.

Banachek - another great lecturer that focused on teaching more than sales.

The other thing I hate about lectures is the simplistic approach to it. They come in, and its "heres a trick, watch... heres how its done... " rinse and repeat. Few lecturers take the time to get into the theory and whys of what they do.

Michael Vincent delivers a great lecture and touches on the theory behind the tricks.

Im to the point of not wanting to sponsor lectures or even attend unless I know it will not be another infomercial or demo show.

Substance! keep it first and foremost lecturers!!!

I would say there has to be a happy middle. I did a lecture and all I was notes and a dvd and many at this club was upset that I one did not have the actual tricks that I used. and two I wanted to give them some killer marketing ideas that I use to book shows. Well about 7 guys loved that part of it but abot 15 guys wanted to know when I was going to show the tricks. So again I think it has be a happy middle.

Good call, Ken. Some guys just want to collect secrets and know how everything is done. They want their magic itch scratched by things they have never seen before. But some people actually care about theory and becoming a better artist or becoming better in the field of marketing. It's hard to strike that happy medium.

I think lectures are the wrong place to "scratch the itches" of the guys just wanting to see tricks. That is why performers do shows. If you want to see a performers performance only, go to one of their shows. A lecture is about teaching and growing.

With that said, lecturers can always do "dealer demos" of things after the lecture for those itchy guys.

I think one of the things lacking in magic is a serious focus on teaching and learning. People want to buy the quick start turnkey tricks, and lecturers want to sell the quick turnkey tricks. Guess that's what the Youtube and instant download generation has become accustomed with. Just keep in mind - if you learn by turnkey, your shows will likely appear turnkey.

Also - walking away from a Kozmo lecture where he focused on teaching and less about selling goods - it made me want more. Buying his DVD was a no brainer at that point. I already knew the value of it from the value he put into his lecture. An infomercial lecture rarely entices me to buy anything.

Mark I totally agree. That is why a lot of guys are doing a workshop aside from the lecture. The workshop cost more but you are getting the nuts and bolts.

It is hard though if a guy is lecturing and only getting a lecture of 250.00 after he or she drove 12 hours to get there. The lectures they have to make money some where and that is product. I would be great like Paul gertner said if lectures could get 1000.00 and simply teach sell nothing. That is the perfect world.

I do notice that there are more lecture now than ever before and I think that is simply because of the economy and lack of shows for a lot of people. So lectures are a way to bring in some cash.

As the Chairman of the JMMRT, I can tell you two things. First off, the lecturers do not get what they should for a fee because the clubs and groups could not afford to have them if they did, so the lecturers rely on the sales to make the tours worth their while. Second, I have also seen where lecturers did not have "Product" that was talked about in their lecture and members were p***ed. One well known coin guy did his whole lecture on flipper coins, but did not have one to sell. I caught hell for booking him.

I do agree that the lecture is to learn from. I also look for theory and reasons for certian movements or words to help better my performances, but the product sales are a must to help pay the way as well as provide the members the products needed to do what they are being taught. If they already own the prop, not need to buy. But if they do not own the prop, and they want to do the effect, that lecturer should have it available or at least make it available through orders and such.

Look at it this way, with all the brick and morter shops going the way of the dinosaur, these are traveling salesmen, bringing the items to you. I know that there are some items that I would prefer to see in person and NOT order online sight unseen just to find it to be a piece of junk when it arrives.

I'm not a fan of dealer demos posing as lectures. However selling a few unique items exclusive to the effects presented that you can't find anywhere else makes sense.
One thing that irk's me about "teaching" lectures is you don't know in advance what the required props are. If you are going to teach a rope trick, let people know to bring rope! If you are going to teach be a teacher - make sure your students have the tools to learn.

This is an interesting thread. I have lectured for over 20 years, on coin magic. I am currently on a lecture tour, and writing this from Anvers, Belgium. I have found that many magicians are scared of coin magic. They think its all about palming and difficult moves. My goal is to show them that coin magic is NOT about difficult finger crunching stuff, but small subtle moves that allow you to do clean magic. My current lecture focuses on coin magic that is not difficult to do, yet has high audiennce impact. So far the response has been very enthusiatic. The first half of the lecture includes my take on some commercial items, but these can be obtained from me or any magic dealer (we are not talking expensive gaffs, but commercial effects). The second half is all sleight of hand, teaching new techniques and routines that are not out of reach of the average magician. All of the material is found in my lecture notes, that come with 2 DVD's of my prior lectures. Available at my lectures are The New York Coin Magic Seminar DVD series, for those who wish to learn more about the art, and the Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights DVD sets, for the beginner. I feel that this should be available for those who wish to understand nd learn more than you can possibly show at a lecture. I think the combination is just what the people want. some tricks they can buy and do, and some techniques they can learn.

Mr. Rubinstein ... did you just do a dealers pitch on a thread dealing with the fact that Dealers pose as lecturers in order to pitch their dealer wares?

That was AWESOME!

PS: I agree with you ... if it is pertaining to the lecture then it should be pitched. Plus the group booked the person for a reason. If all they want is a magic show .. then pay the show price. To me it is always been odd to me that a magician gets paid less to "expose" or "teach" his magic as he would to perform it. I think it should be ... pay him his price if you want him .. pay him more if you want him to teach.

SEE YA REAL SOON!

I am not sure I understand your post entirely. Did you just call me a Dealer? My lecture is a 2 hour teaching session. I have been teaching coin magic for over 20 years. However, I have found that in the past, people would come to watch the magic, but would never do it, because they thought the material was too difficult. unfortunately, people are scared of any coin magic that uses a classic palm. they will put in the work to do a double lift, a pass, and all the card moves, but are not willing to extend that practice to coin magic. They think its just too difficult and don't want to try. I see this all the time. So, I have come up with a lecture that focuses on coin magic that is not too difficult to do, and has high audience impact. In order to do that, some of the tricks are done with dealer items. Such as a practical and entertaining way to perform the Nest of Boxes. I do have these at my lecture, but many people have props like this sitting in their drawers, not beinng used for lack of a good routine. During the lecture, there are new moves, new sleight of hand tricks, as well - something for everyone. it is NOT a dealer demo, and I agree, I wouldn't want to go to a lecture to see a dealer demo. I am known for being a coin magic purist - sleight of hand over gaffs, and all of the material I have put out over the years proves that. So, I hope I clarified that for you.

The fact that this is refreshing, is the scary part. I too, teach a lecture which requires no purchases. Of course, I show products and sell DVD notes in the end, but you get the content of my lecture with entertainment and solid methods, this is the way it used to be. I recently was part of a convention and 8 out of the 10 "lectures" were glorified dealer demos. It seems to not only be accepted and tolerated, but expected as the norm.
I marvel at the sales ratios of the dealer demo vrs real lectures, and it seems that convention attendees want that scenario.