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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts 
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IF the question is, is it practical to work alone and use a shift to beat the cut at the card table? Then answer is, yes.
Is that the question? No!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts
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I like how god always becomes a big subject when we talk card cheating..
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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God moves in mysterious ways.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Clock Elite user Los Angeles, CA 460 Posts
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"It's alright. It's alright. It's alright."
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-05-24 20:02, Clock wrote: You're absolutely correct. Quote:
Even if you happen to be working single-o (which is a bad idea from the get go), lay a brief and hope for the best. Not a 100% strategy, but the odds can be in your favor. Why is playing single-o a bad idea? Readers before you read any further stop and think about it, come to your conclusion then decide if he's right or not... Now whatever conclusion you've came up with, here's mine. Clock is stuck in the world of Mr. Z. (the poker & casino environment) not realizing that there are other worlds in this here galaxy. What about the worlds of head up black jack, tonk of which I was playing that night, coon-can, casino, knock rummy, pitch/set back, pinochle, pitty-pat, 5-card stud, Texas hold'em, Omaha, Georgia Skin, 2's wild, jacks or better, dealers choice, low-ball, spades/cut throat and God only knows what other nationalities card games that are played. This why there is more cheating moves than there is a deck of cards; so many different games and so many variations to them games. Why would I want a partner in a 4 man tonk game when I can win 3 x as much money without him; he's only in my way. How can you be so sure that when you and your partner go to a poker game that's already in progress (walking deal) that you'll be sitting next to one another. When I go to games and a seat becomes vacant, the house man ask one of us would we like to sit and play until another one becomes vacant. Should I sit or not? So what you're telling me is not to cheat/hop the deck until my friend gets into the game with a ratio of 1 to 8 that he'll sit next to me. You have the skills but your experience in poker and about the world of other games is found wanting; oh and that Fillipino Freddy move that you all talk about so much is even more wanting. If you think I'm lying about other card games just look in the K.C. Card Company catalog and see if there are cheating techniques listed for the above games that I've mentioned; this will show you that other games really do exist and is cheated at. Clock you say that we're on two different plains and you know what I have to agree with you. Your skill far exceeds your playing knowledge. This subject should be beneath you. Why? As a cold deck expert, this gives me the authority to say that your cold deck variation of Steve's move of which you sent me and the one that's on YouTube is much better then his, therefore you shouldn't even be running up hands and playing all night long when you have the ability to give the whole *** table a hand breaking them with one move and going about your business. I hope I'm wrong in saying this but without words you're telling me that you've never done this move in a real game as of yet, is this true and if so why don't you speak with this kind of authority? Why are you doing inferior moves when you know superior? Are you scared to cold deck in a real game? Talk to me. Quote:
For all you cheats out there who can't punch deal listen to Clock (this statement) if you want to but I promise you this, if you don't hop the deck (a move invented to stop the cheat) you're gonna be sleeping on the street real, real soon. LOL Respectfully Doc |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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Quote:
I hope I'm wrong in saying this but without words you're telling me that you've never done this move in a real game as of yet, is this true and if so why don't you speak with this kind of authority? Doc, I don't think Clock has ever claimed to be a real cheater. For that matter, I don't recall Mr Z ever explicitly claiming such. With love and respect (TRULY!), you shouldn't criticize someone for never doing a move in a real game when then they don't have as a goal to move in a real game. Now, criticize to your heart's content those who claim to really move in REAL games. That's what we're here for. Everything else is theory. |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts
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On 2010-05-31 16:13, stoneunhinged wrote: You may be right and I'm wrong but I really think that the cheats and wanna-bee's here want the facts. These guys here look up to Clock and Mr. Z because of their extra-ordinary skills and respect their judgement call on games etc. I was once fooled believing skilled individuals thinking that they were experts in playing as well and this was not so. I'm here to set the record straight about particular facts and to let the readers decide for themselves that which is right. If I've offended any one I very much apologize. Take care Doc |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts
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[quote]On 2010-05-31 16:13, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
... you shouldn't criticize someone for never doing a move in a real game when then they don't have as a goal to move in a real game ... Sorry Stone, but I disagree. There is an abyss between practicing a move and performing in for real! Just a few words to illustrate, on youtube, I've seen kids or youngsters performing absolutely perfect moves, I've seen amazing and flawless techniques. Far from mine, far better, no doubt about that. But what about doing it in an actual game? You can't rehearse when you miss in true life! You've got to take the context into consideration, to use the deck they use, to follow the procedures they use. Demo is one thing, true play another one. You need balls to cheat in a true game! You need nerves. I remember the first time I dared, I just couldn't move, I thought everyone was staring at me, I couldn't even kill a card! That's why I (too) often say "Well done man, but it won't work" (at least in my games). Of course contexts are different, cheats are different, the games played are different, but even if the guy has a flawless technique I won't be convinced unless he tries it for real. You catch a big hanger during a true game? It's a punch right in your face. Minimum. You fail a move at home for youtube? You just do it again. Then, if you don't do a move for real, it's possible to be criticized because it's so different to do it for real. It's nothing personal against the guy, it's about reality. |
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ein_doppelganger Loyal user 213 Posts
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Well put Arnie,
I'm curious if you have any stories you can share of dealing with a mistake in the moment. Have you ever been in a situation where you needed to "change the moment" or quickly deal with a situation that could get messy? Cheers Ein D. |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts
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Yes, lol. A couple of time. Maybe it would be nice to open a thread about "mistakes" that have happened once in a while to those who try to move...
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ein_doppelganger Loyal user 213 Posts
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Lol , I would love to hear more and from any of the others on the list who move under fire. I find that you learn a lot of good technique from how people recover from their mistakes.
The thread has been started 
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Clock Elite user Los Angeles, CA 460 Posts
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Quote:
First of all, don't talk to me like I'm a ******* idiot. Of course I know there are other games. The only reason I posted in this thread was because it sounded like everyone in here was talking about "hand dealt; home game; POKER. Right? Please, correct me if I'm wrong. If you want to talk about the art of knocking off pitty-pat, start another thread. Quote:
On 2010-05-30 20:51, Unknown419 wrote: How do you know exactly what cheats were doing before Erdnase? We can only read and speculate. Was it not Erdnase who said... "This artifice is erroneously supposed to be indispensable to the professional, but the truth is it is little used, and adopted only as a last resort... the shift is yet to be invented that can be executed by a movement appearing as coincident card table routine; or that can be executed with the hands held stationary and not show some maneuver has taken place, no matter how cleverly performed." Players are not idiots. If someone see's the two halves transposed... there is no question to what you are doing. Quote:
On 2010-05-31 15:59, Unknown419 wrote: Let me clarify. I am talking about the single-o bottom dealer/run up man in poker. Here are the downsides for the single-o cheat. 1. You move/win on your deal. 2. You have to shift/hop the cut. 3. You have to be lucky to have the right cards to cull. 4. Pray that the sucker bites. Working with a partner has WAY more advantages over working alone. Here are some of the advantages of working with a partner in poker for the hand dealt game scenario. 1. You are not running up/dealing hands to yourself. 2. You partner has MANY more opportunities to cull for you. 3. Fair cut. Again, I am just talking PLAYER DEALT POKER like everyone in here. Quote:
On 2010-05-31 15:59, Unknown419 wrote: An 8 player game ONLY cheating on your deal? The deck is given to you (squared), and now you have to cull on the fly? Shifting the cut every time? Praying that the sucker bites? Peeking the turn and flop? Good luck! You better be a *** good poker player for the other 7 hands that are dealt. I'd find another game. Quote:
On 2010-05-31 15:59, Unknown419 wrote: I am not a card cheater. I am an admitted wannabe. I only messed around in school from a purely romantic standpoint (probably under 6 games!). Smart? No. The only poker games I have ever successfully cheated in where were... 1. With a partner sitting to my right hitting a brief (helping me set up hands). 2. Partner who can also deal bottoms (we would work together). 3. Introduce a cooler. I have lost HARD trying to work a game by myself (peeking, stacking, shifting, bottom dealing, waiting). Hell of a grind. I don't claim to be some kind of hustler traveling across the country taking off games. I am only strongly interested in the subject, and like to practice the techniques. I never claim to be anything I'm not. Hell, I never claim to be anything! I am truly curious to know how you are beating these poker games with your shift; working alone. |
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Clock Elite user Los Angeles, CA 460 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-05-31 15:59, Unknown419 wrote: I know for a fact the man used it in play. In 5 card draw, he had the opportunity to casually play with the discards and set up a hand. Being able to play with the discards without heat is probably the best single-o bottom deal type scenario you could be in. |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-06-02 01:26, Clock wrote: Who gives a **** about what Erdnase have to say his words are not etched in stone. Walter Scott nor Allen Kennedy ever read the book and they were experts in their field as well. ...and to answer your previous quetion players are idiots...they are idiots to the hop/shift. Why do you say that Doc? Everyone here at this Magic Café including me are idiots to that which we know nothing about. The people to whom the magicians perform for are idiots because they know nothing about magic tricks, likewise card players are idots because they're human and even if they do see a hop or anything they can't explain it, they don't know what just happened nor why the guy done what they've seen. You're giving regular players too much credit and abilities that they know nothing about just because they're gamblers. Quote:
On 2010-05-31 15:59, Unknown419 wrote: Let me clarify. I am talking about the single-o bottom dealer/run up man in poker. Here are the downsides for the single-o cheat. 1. You move/win on your deal. 2. You have to shift/hop the cut. 3. You have to be lucky to have the right cards to cull. 4. Pray that the sucker bites. Working with a partner has WAY more advantages over working alone. Here are some of the advantages of working with a partner in poker for the hand dealt game scenario. 1. You are not running up/dealing hands to yourself. 2. You partner has MANY more opportunities to cull for you. 3. Fair cut. Again, I am just talking PLAYER DEALT POKER like everyone in here. Quote:
You see why you're a wannabe and not a hustler. What you are suppose to do is go back home or to your hotel room and make you some N-strippers with whatever 9 card combo you like, now go to Frank Garcia's book and see how two hustlers took off a poker game. ... or you can take Steve's move culling on the fly and take out Jeff Wessmiller's DVD 2 and go to his culling and run-up section and study that. After studying it you would realize that you won't have to guess what the flop is, you will know what the flop is. Look at the first 8 cards (7, K, 5, K, 8, 4. J, J). Cull a King or Jack as your first card, now add 7 cards making the total 8. Now add a King or Jack on top of that and now add 7 more cards making that total 8 as well; beat the cut and deal. Now you don't have to worry about what the other 7 players have because the best that anyone of them can do is break even with you; you can't lose. Note: Don't anyone try to steal this and put it in a book claiming that they made it up. This is the Doc's "Cull Fly Run-Up Technique." You see we can't always find another game we have to figure out how to beat the games that's at hand or we don't eat. Quote:
On 2010-05-31 15:59, Unknown419 wrote: I am not a card cheater. I am an admitted wannabe. I only messed around in school from a purely romantic standpoint (probably under 6 games!). Smart? No. The only poker games I have ever successfully cheated in where were... 1. With a partner sitting to my right hitting a brief (helping me set up hands). 2. Partner who can also deal bottoms (we would work together). 3. Introduce a cooler. I have lost HARD trying to work a game by myself (peeking, stacking, shifting, bottom dealing, waiting). Hell of a grind. I don't claim to be some kind of hustler traveling across the country taking off games. I am only strongly interested in the subject, and like to practice the techniques. I never claim to be anything I'm not. Hell, I never claim to be anything! I am truly curious to know how you are beating these poker games with your shift; working alone. [/quote] I gave you this answer in the previous question, now study it Always remember this...if it's a game where the deal walks (every body deals) that means you can cold deck them, that's how I do it. Clock, a lot of us is not well off like yourself therefore if we don't cheat, we don't eat (or have a place to stay). Yes you may think that I'm hard and you're right but living and sleeping on the streets is even harder, this is why I'm hard on whomever conciously or unconciously mislead these here (my) readers because their life depends on what we say. You all may study Erdnase and come up with erroneous evaluations but I'm a living Erdnase and I'm telling it like it really is. Respectfully Doc |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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I asked Robert what game we are talking about here.
If you look at his answer you will see what game that it is we are talking about and the conditions under which it is being played. It is not head up black jack, tonk of which you were playing last night, nor coon-can, casino, knock rummy, pitch/set back, pinochle, pitty-pat, 5-card stud, Georgia Skin, 2's wild, jacks or better, dealers choice, low-ball, spades/cut throat and God only knows what other nationalities card games that are played. Those games are a different kettle of fish than the game we are talking about. The kettle of fish we are talking about as Robert explained is a self dealt game of Hold’em played by drunken students. That is the game that Clock is talking about and the game I am talking about. I say I would not work alone and use a shift in it. But as I said above, I am not altogether against working alone and using a shift in other games, as I said I have done that in a game called Kalooki for example. In this student game that we are talking about though, I would not advise doing that. The alternatives that Clock has offered in this game we are talking about are reasonable. What I am saying about this game is, if I had to work alone in this game I would use readers rather than stack and do a shift to beat the cut. I think in this game we are talking about there would be little problem is in switching in readers well before the game, as I assume there will little security with the cards. I bet the cards are just left lying around. They will not know who put them in, even in the unlikely event they are discovered in the game. And for the other reasons I have already mentioned above. Readers will give one a constant advantage as Jeff pointed out. Etc. You may think stacking and doing a shift will give some unbeatable advantage but in reality I think you will find it ain’t necessarily so. If you stacked a pair of Aces in this particular game you are more likely to lose the pot than win it. The reason being is that these opponents are drunken fish who will enter the pots on mass, with anything, stay in it to the death and outdraw you. That is not to say there is no advantage in it. Actually my best advice for this game that we are talking about, is, stay sober and learn to play poker and you will get their money without any cheating off these drunken fish. Even if you are cheating it helps to know the odds. Of course there are other games where a shift might fit the bill. That is why I asked what game we are taking about here. I do however agree that people do tend to talk as if there is only one game and shouldn’t but in this case there was only one game we were talking about because I asked what game we were talking about and was told by Robert, who asked the original question. So what game do you want to talk about now, if you don‘t want to talk about the game we were talking about?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts
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Tommy I was wrong and even though I don't want to, it's time for me to put the "Dunce Cap" on and sit in a corner at the back of the class with my face towards the wall.
Hey if the Dunce Cap can be placed on you, it can be placed on me as well. Everyone is a student at the school of "Hard Knocks." Respectfully Doc |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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Thanks Doc. It was just a little a mix up.
What you were saying about there is another world is dead right and there is some crossover at my place. Its like this; There are three games played here: Poker, Backgammon and Kalooki. Now the poker is like a casino game, with croupiers and all of that, it’s a pretty high stakes game and sometimes so high few can afford to sit down in it. Lets call that one world. However when the poker game is not on, when the place is quite, after the poker game has broke up or before it starts, we often get a few, or just two, fellows playing Kalooki or Backgammon. Now these two games are like the other world games. Not only could you beat them but you can get into them as the stakes start low, normally. Once you start winning their dough they want to increase the stakes as they start chasing. What I mean is some of the rich poker players don’t mind playing for small stakes in these other games, just to kill some time. It’s a bit like being a pool hustler in these games. Sometimes I am here alone, a player arrives just for a chat and we will play kalooki, which is like Gin and player dealt, for low stakes to start with, just to kill some time. I have ended up winning a lot a dough in such circumstances starting at very low stakes. Some years ago here in England they used to play many games but I personally haven’t seen many of the old games that were played here played for years.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Posted: May 31, 2010 10:38 am 
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