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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts 
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Mass Media Manipulation Neuro-Linguistic Sorcery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFfLAjiVkxA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3OtQ13hiM8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eFtG2tuHp0 OK :)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Tommy, there's much, much more to NLP than what's being described there. Inconsiderate and insulting TV hosts are nothing new. If you'd like to do a little NLP observation - watch the guy being interviewed.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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Thanks Jon. Yes sure. I read the things you kindly sent me some time ago. I got the gist of it, lets say.
I will watch the interview again and see if can see what you mean as I did not get what the other fellow was doing.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts
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I say watch Anthony Robbins.
Or just listen to him.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 187 Posts
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I confess I only watched perhaps half of each of those clips (enough to get the drift I believe), but it seems to me that the NLP angle in those clips is just a subtle ruse to promote a 911 conspiracy agenda. I really don't think NLP is the narrator's primary concern (if so, then why not "analyze" the subject of the interviews?). I don't know, but that's the impression I got. I'll have to go back and watch the full vids when I have more time. Your thoughts?
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts
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R.S.,
That was my impression also. Hannity is annoying enough of a character to easily become a misdirection. Quack vs. quack.
Michael Kamen
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Ade2010 Regular user 157 Posts
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Let me just say that there is absolutely no scientific evidence (from any peer-reviewed journal in good standing) for the veracity of NLP. It runs counter to all that is accepted as fact in the field of Psychology.
Smoke 'n' mirrors man, like rilly. Adrian Hague BSc. (Hons) Applied Psychology & Computing. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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Applied Psychology is Magic.
In any event I can’t see what Jon means. Come on Jon tell me what you see or give us a clue. 
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Ade2010 Regular user 157 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-07-12 05:53, tommy wrote: Actually, I'd phrase it the other way around. I've learned more about Applied Psychology by performing then I ever did at Uni... |
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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"It runs counter to all that is accepted as fact in the field of Psychology."
this phrase strikes me funny -- a non-sequitor of sorts. "Accepted as fact" means "to believe" and suggests that psychology is not based on any facts at all. (which is a view held by some) For me, there is a lot of value in the study of psychology -- but also in other fields as well. Perhaps one has to look at "peer reviews" in other fields including performance magic. Many post here on the Café' can be considered "peer reviews" of applied psychology. I will take someones experienced view like Whit Haydn's as "fact" over some nebulous psychological study in a sterile environment. but I agree that NLP as practiced by many goes far beyond the communication basics on which it was founded, but to say that it has no validity might be throw the baby out with the wash water. The practical reliance on Non-Verbal cues has been documented since Aristotle and is fundamental to psychological study, i.e. the way people think and act and communicate. Communication theory and study is not a sub-field of psychology. Certainly, the developers of NLP as an application where psychologists, but the theories all come from speech communication -- and were called "magic" by the authors. It is sad that NLP has been turned into a sort of religion or a buzz word to cover all sorts of mis-information, but is certainly has as much "factual basis" as any other psychological theory. I guess that psychologists now call these theories something else. NLP also means "no light perception" for the visually impaired.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Ade2010 Regular user 157 Posts
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OT in 3, 2, 1...
Quote:
On 2010-07-12 07:59, funsway wrote: 'Accepted as fact' refers to the use of Scientific Method. In SM, it is held that it is impossible to prove anything as true indefinitely. So, the assumption is made that once one eradicates all falsehoods (which *can* be proven to exist indefinitely) what one is left with is truth. Yes this is a 'belief', but it is a Justified, True Belief (see wikipedia - Ontology (the study of how we know what we know). As to the comment, that "psychology is not based on any facts at all. (which is a view held by some)" - that's just plain ignorance on the part of those people who hold such views. Quote:
On 2010-07-12 07:59, funsway wrote: Thant's an interesting way of looking at it. I broadly agree 
Quote:
On 2010-07-12 07:59, funsway wrote: I have the greatest respect for the therories of the venerable Mr Haydn (as I have documented elsewhere on this board), and avidly look forward to the rumoured book he has in the works. But to characterise psychological studies as 'nebulous' is somewhat obtuse. Quote:
On 2010-07-12 07:59, funsway wrote: Documented where? As previously stated, I have yet to come across a cohenrent body of evidence that points to the veracity of NLP and its methods. Even the theory of NLP (that, broadly speaking, language determines thought) has no basis on our understanding of modern Psycholinguistics. I really have to disagree on the statement that NLP has as much factual basis as any other psychological theory. If that where so it should be possible for you to show me an accredited Psychology degree which has NLP on its syllabus. This however, is not possible, because no such degree exists. This is a strong indicator as to how academia regards NLP. |
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Ade2010 Regular user 157 Posts
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I should clarify: Yes, there is ample evidence for 'non-verbal cues', but that's not what NLP is about (the hint is the 'non-verbal' bit)
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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Have you actually read "The Structure of Magic" by Bandler and Grinder"
It is very clear they are not inventing anything new -- only taken practices from other disciplines like speech comunication and applying them to psychological therapy. I care little for NLP as a practice, but respect the proven concepts on which it is based (to my knowledge). What modern NLP practice was been warped into does not deny its credible roots. Instead you now use "Modern Psycholinguistics" as if that is supposed to mean something of value. The 'fact' that a certain course is not part of a particular degree track does not prove that the subject has no value. There are many courses no longer required for a BA while teachers pretend that graduates are educated. On the way to my two Masters I had to study a lot of things that should have been taught in highschool and didn't get to study subjects that should be part of a graduate curriculum. Psychology provides one type of lens for examining human behavior -- certainly nor the only one. Considering other people "ignorant" just because they hold other views than your own is possible proof of the narowness of your eduction. Is that one of the "assumptions" you are required to make? Here at least your language certainly indicates your thought process. but have accompished one thing -- I now have less respect for the field of psychology than I did before -- at least as a "science."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Ade2010 Regular user 157 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-07-12 11:35, funsway wrote: Admittedly, no. I am familiar with 'Magic and Showmanship' and 'Designing Miracles'. I will seek out the title you mention. Read many books on Psychology? (not including 'pop'-psychology and 'self-help' books) Quote:
On 2010-07-12 11:35, funsway wrote: I would disagree that anything in NLP is 'proven' (i.e. through a double-blind experimental paradigm, using statistical analysis to determine if the results are greater than that which could be achieved by chance alone). Quote:
On 2010-07-12 11:35, funsway wrote In point of fact, Psycholinguistics (as a field of academic study) predates NLP, is an established field of academia, is taught on most Psychology degrees, and has a significant body of evidence to support it (see Noam Chomsky on 'Generative Grammar') Quote:
On 2010-07-12 11:35, funsway wrote It proves that it has no value to those academic institutions involved in the teaching of the subject. I believe that these institutions are rather well equiped to make such value judgements. Quote:
On 2010-07-12 11:35, funsway wrote Agreed, it certiany is not the only one. It is one of the few that have been shown to produce verifiable and repeatable results though, something that cannot be said of NLP. Quote:
On 2010-07-12 11:35, funsway wrote The statement that 'psychology is not based on any facts at all' is demonstrably false. It is at best obtuse, and at worst ignorant. I may attack a persons views (when they hold those views to be demonstrably true), but this does not equate to a personal attack. You are not your ideas. Quote:
On 2010-07-12 11:35, funsway wrote That's a real shame. I have done my best to elucidate my reasons, backed up with verifiable facts. Feel free to ignore or dismiss my views, but don't let this colour your view of science, especially in the absence of any other information. PS. How many Psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb? One - but only if the lightbulb *really* wants to change! Ba-dum, tish! |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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According to aerodynamic laws, the bumblebee cannot fly.
Its body weight is not the right proportion to its wingspan. Ignoring these laws, the bumblebee flies anyway. :)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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The purpose of psychology is to give us a completely different idea of the things we know best. ~Paul Valéry, Tel Quel, 1943
Yes, you have done your best to "elucidate my reasons" but not address the issues I have raised. I will agree that if you want to be a psychologist you should study only that which psychologists say is important and ignore the rest. NLP has foundation in fields other than psychology -- so naturally if you wish to understand it you must look outside that field. But as neither of us like NLP coming to any agreement is pointless anyway. ideas or statements cannot be either "obtuse" or "ignorant" -- only people. The use of those terms is a personal attack on someone -- once more illustrating how your use of language does indicate how you think. Try words like "unsubstanciated" or "incomplete" when talking about ideas -- it will convey more substance. If psychologists think "ignorant" is an adjective describing an idea we are all in big trouble. "There is no psychology; there is only biography and autobiography." ~Thomas Szasz, The Second Sin: Psychology, 1973
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Ade2010 Regular user 157 Posts
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Continued via PM.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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I can thank Ade2010 for assisting me in better understanding why I dislike NLP --
giving us more in common than differences. All discussion with "magic" at the core seem like that -- a change of perceptions. I also found a couple of fun quotes: I personally believe we developed language because of our deep inner need to complain. ~Jane Wagner The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand. ~Lewis Thomas
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Mass Media Manipulation Neuro-Linguistic Sorcery (0 Likes) | |
Posted: Jul 11, 2010 01:49 am 
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