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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
But Bill.
Not all fantasy is funny but then not all fancy looks so real as our magic, so real that you have tell them its not to be taken seriously. Otherwise you run the risk of being charlatan. The more seriously you ask them to take magic the closer you get to being a charlatan it seems to me. Our art calls for us to present magic in a humorous way because of that. It invariably is presented in a humorous way because of that Perhaps? Also isn’t there something funny about presenting something that they know does not exist but looks so real? Isn’t there something funny about nonsense. Isn’t magic nonsense? Isn’t the outcome completely illogical?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Magic may certainly be presented quite validly as fantasy. The magic becomes part of a story. As Whit has said this weakens the dilemma, since the focus is on the story and the magic is accepted as a mere special effect. Nonetheless, this is a quite valid artistic choice.
I think when we are discussing humor in the context of the dilemma, a distinction must be made between the humor that softens the blow of the dilemma by creating a light and entertaining atmosphere about the performance, and the humor of the situation that the audience discovers for themselves (with our help), as an instrument for climbing down from the horns where they would otherwise remain impaled. I think this is preferable than just forgetting about it altogether, dismissing it, or searching out the methods used. Telling the story later, they might do so with a sense of pride, a sense of grasping some secret wisdom -- as in, they got the "cosmic joke." If there is any useful truth in "magic is a joke", I think it lies in this line of thinking, of magic as (metaphor perhaps) kind of cosmic joke, i.e. irony. Here, I am attaching meaning to it, which is not strictly necessary. I think the humor is there as a natural response to the dilemma, to be tapped as an artistic choice, whatever meaning one attaches to it or not.
Michael Kamen
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
Michael, I didn't mean to imply that magic is necessarily presented as a fantasy, rather, I mean that if the audience is aware they're being deceived, that all magic will ultimately be viewed as not being real. An illusions that is recognized as an illusion, and yet is internalized as being real, end up being recognized as a fantasy. I probably shouldn't have used that word because fantasy is a category of literature and theater, and I'm using it's psychological meaning. It's the recognition that the magic isn't real that is the second part of Whit Haydn's dilemma theory.
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On 2010-07-25 17:20, tommy wrote: I think your analysis only applies to some magic. David Copperfield - Cocoon David Copperfield - Airplane Vanish I've read that some people actually cry at the live presentation of "Flying." David Copperfield - Flying The very small amount of comedy in this has nothing to do with that the magic is not real. David Copperfield - Torn and Restored Baseball card None of those use humor to show that the magician is not a charlatan. I could post more links to make that point. I do think humor can serve the purpose you suggest, it's just not the only way. And, in modern civilization, just calling a show a magic show rules out the issue of charlatanry for the vast majority of people, and the few who are confused will eventually get the truth from most other people.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If there is nothing funny about attempting the absurd and succeeding then what can we call funny?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
Attempting the absurd and succeeding is not always funny.
As I mentioned, David Copperfield's "Flying" act makes some people cry. They will not laugh about it at the time they see it, or later. His "Cocoon" act will only make someone laugh if their reaction to astonishment is stress-laughter, but in that case they won't think the Coocoon routine was funny. You'll hear words like "amazing." Some other people will try to explain it. Few people, if any, are going to say, "Ha ha ha, he transposed with her - he expects us to believe that - that is funny." A modern audience knows David Copperfield, who calls himself an "illusionist," doesn't expect people to believe that the magic is real. What David Copperfield expects is that the magic will seem so real to them that it will create a conflict with their a-priori knowledge that the magic is not real. They will believe what they saw cannot be done, but will know that it was apparently done. It will surprise them and give them a thrill. He does do some funny acts too, but the humor generally (always?) is distinct from the magic.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-07-23 05:31, tommy wrote: Perhaps in the sense that to "get" our jokes the audience has to catch themselves forming the belief that we are using storybook type magic and reconcile that against both the certain knowledge that we are there to entertain them and that even a moment's logical consideration* rules out storybook magic being relevant to our shared world. We were/are pulling their leg. They know it. It's okay. The extent to which we can engage their credulity is perhaps similar to what comics do during the middle section of "the aristocrats" - but g-rated usually. ************************** *the usual elegant proof goes something like this: That which effects a physical thing is itself a physical thing. Linguistic referents and shared experiences aside, that which one imagines is a construct existing only within the construct of one's model of reality. (those are lemmas - ask if you need help with proving them to your satisfaction) From these we can safely conclude that the causes of what we experience as similar to storybook magic are applied physics of a sort and that which we imagine about what we see of a performance need not be more than a very limited view/understanding of all that was present and active during the show. For example we know that techies strike the sets and put up new sets behind the curtains and that items on stage have an appearance greatly dependent upon their distance to us and how they are lit.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Great thoughts all. Yes, the cosmic joke may well be that we will so easily want to believe in a seductive possibility. Whether we experience that with a good humor or as a disappointment is the central problem. Agreed, many roads to Rome.
Quote:
On 2010-07-25 19:11, tommy wrote: I happen to agree wholeheartedly
Michael Kamen
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
"Ladies and Gentlemen: I’m going to prove to you that I'm a real magician. I am the only genuine real magician in the world actually. All the others are fakes. Seriously! Pick a card any card.”
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Don Alan used to say something to the effect of, "I would like to introduce you to my Ranch Bird -- he is actually a real live bird and I will now prove it to you by winding him up."
Of course, that is the same bird that goes on to find the selected card. We have the combined kidding and mockery of an explanation that turns out to be the only "possible" explanation. Tremendous intrinsic humor.
Michael Kamen
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
As I said above, I think magic itself is very much like a joke in that they both get their power from breaking mental expectations.
But I don't think that all magic is humorous or needs to be. Nor are all jokes actually funny per se, there is grim or "black" humor, for instance. Ergo my reference to "The Comedian" who is certainly one of the most sociopathic characters in the story. (For those who read it, we could have a debate which is more, he or Rorschach but I think he is. Rorschach actually cares about a principle, and in that, about the world.) I honestly think that getting all caught up in you tube or the masked exposer is self-indulgent twaddle. We have as much power to amaze as we always have, however the power to amaze doesn't come from "the secret" and never did. Take a look at this fellow for instance, does he "amaze"? The technical elements are all there. What is missing IS the "acting", the "story-telling." Neither he nor his assistant act amazed so why should we be? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO7NjKewUfg&feature=related IMHO really good magicians have always been story tellers. Whether they were telling stories about gods in their temples, or rabbits hiding in hutches
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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