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seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Hello all,
So, so far I really like doing seances. Eventually I would like to offer several seances: -a totally legit seance, focusing on a hypnotic guided visualization +this would be for the metaphysically inclined, for house parties -a more theatrical, but still legit seance. Along the lines of Voodini's Jack the Ripper seance +for the metaphysically inclined and the more serious/involved, for house parties and bed and breakfasts, etc. -a more theatrical gimmicked seance +for the more casual thrill seeker, who wants a good and exciting time, but does not necessarily believe or want to invest the energy of a full long seance evening, for parties and bed and breakfasts Is it a bad idea to try to offer all of these (eventually, it's not an issue now)? If I emphasize that the first two are real and legit, would that undermine the impact of the last? I appreciate any thought on this. Thank You Courtney
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
Vic Nadata Special user Charlotte, NC 935 Posts |
I don't see an issue at all with offering all of them. It's the way you market and explain them in your advertisement, promo stuff etc.
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dwitten13 New user 14 Posts |
Courtney,
I recently did a performance for a Halloween show based on Tarot Readings and some other "other worldly" things. My issue, is that I am a Magician. Not a "Pyshcic". So, how do I get them to understand, I am not trying to get them to believe, but yet not diminish the effect by saying, "Now you know that was all just pretend". I think I actually got one girl near tears because of my cold reading, and I really kind of felt bad after. I did state at the begining, that I am not a pyschic and I do not know how to read Tarot Cards. But I did it anyway. Coupled with a few other effects, I think I sold them that I must have something going on. So your question kind of brought up this same dilema, HOW do you SELL yourself for the first two, "Legit" seances? OR are you truly a psychic and also a magician? Again, if it was me, I would NOT call my seance "legit", unless I could actually channel a spirit. To me that seems to go back to the time of the "Spiritualists" that many very famous magicians set out to disprove a long time ago. This seems to be a very tricky area. Please don't take what I am saying the wrong way, YOU can put yourself out there however you like. I am not judging that at all. Just stating a dilema I just recently struggled with. Good topic for discussion! And this may help me delve into the more Mentalist / Pycological Magic arena as well, so I look forward to see what others have to say. thanks, Dan PS. If you have not read "Spirit Theatre" by Eugene Burger yet, you should, it is RIGHT up your avenue!
The Magic of D. W.
www.dwmagic.org |
Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Courtney
I was having a talk with a friend (who is also one of my agents) and she was telling me of a shocking experience she had. She was approached after one of her jobs by someone who wanted to partner with her (work wise, don’t get funny). She was listening, then he started going off on ways to fake things (magic/mentalism techniques). And she asked him why. His response was, well then how do you do it? She said she is a psychic! "Why fake things when it is easier to do it for real?" Those final words are words I live by. She calls mystery entertainers who pretend to be psychic, "Fake Psychics". If you can do the real work, I would not bother with the theatrical side. Theatrical presentations diminish you in the eyes of those who look for the real thing. The idea of being a fake and using trickery identifies you as a fraud. And those whom you have already worked with, when/if they learn… Have good medical coverage! Do one or the other and fly with it. In this world, it is the rare person who can have his cake and eat it too. Tony |
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Dwitten13,
Quote:
To me that seems to go back to the time of the "Spiritualists" that many very famous magicians set out to disprove a long time ago I tend not to like those people, or at least not that aspect of their work. I do real stuff and take it seriously, but I like tricky stuff to. Quote:
Tony Iacoviello wrote: I think your probably right. That's to bad, I like both. Posted: Nov 18, 2010 8:15pm Quote: On 2010-11-18 19:56, seadog93 wrote: I think your probably right. That's to bad, I like both. Although I still haven't ruled it out completely. Posted: Nov 18, 2010 10:15pm Dwitten13, I was thinking about it and I hope my post didn't come off as rude. I appreciate your thoughts. I'm actually typing at my 'day job,' so I was trying to be quick! I don't consider myself to be any more psychic than I think everyone naturally is, but I've been involved in "other worldly" type stuff since I was 11, so I have no problem presenting it as legit and meaning it. I also recommend (if your interested) Paul Voodini's seance books from lybrary.com; he is fairly skeptical and has his own opinions as to why things happen at seances, but his seances are ungimmicked (and so, are legit) and he admits that as far as he knows his opinions could be wrong. My initial concern was that if I offered real and "fake" seances then people would be unimpressed by the fake seance; but it hadn't occured to me that it could work the other way and make people suspicious of the real ones. I may just stick with legit seance and keep the fun tricky stuff confined to bizarre magick shows.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
If you want to do both set up two seperate sites and toss an initial in for one so you don't have the wrong traffic to the wrong site. This goes back to the basic idea that you don't advertize your psychic business on the same site as your kids shows. You are in a great area for seances, lots of older homes, lots of weirdos, lots of extra income, and lots of people looking for stuff to do.
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dwitten13 New user 14 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-18 22:15, seadog93 wrote: Courney, No Worries, I took no offense to what you mentioned. That book sounds interesting and I may have to take a look. I think your last line may be "Where I would go" with your dilema, but again, I truly feel that you will need to make that decision yourself. Possibly, offering a fake / legit, may just be a poor way to lable it. Maybe one could be more "intimate = legit" and one be more "theatrical = fake".... just some thoughts. As soon as you put out there that you have a fake vs legit, it would just seem to open up a very large can or worms that may not be what you are hoping for. And of course you never want to out right LIE about what you are doing, so possibly for the theatrical show it would describe the old "Spirit Shows" of the past as a frame work to how you perform. That way, if someone is interested, THEY can go research what that means, or not. It's up to them. As always, these are just some thoughts rolling thru my head and also things I am partially dealing with myself in order to find a way to expand my current Kids/Family magic show into some more intimate ESP / spiritualist show. take care, Dan Quote:
On 2010-11-18 16:52, Vic Nadata wrote: I just re-read this, and this is exactly what I was saying in my last post as well.
The Magic of D. W.
www.dwmagic.org |
Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
A way to look at it is:
If you give demonstrations on cheating at cards, do you think you will be trusted or welcomed at card games? Where I don't see "legit" work impacting on the theatrical work, I know for a fact (seen it) that theatrical work (or knowledge that you do it) WILL impact your "legit" work. The trust is gone. Tony |
Roslyn Inner circle UK 3405 Posts |
I'm confused as to what people are referring to as a legit seance.
Are we talking about non-gaffed stuff, that still uses psychological and other propless methods. Or are we talking about those seances performed by those who claim actual spirit contact? If it's the former, then isn't a method a method? And does it really matter if you blur the lines a little between the two? I mean, if you make no claims one way or the other you haven't lied about anything... Right? Plus those that believe will believe and those that don't won't regardless of what you do. For example, you do a non-gaffed seance. If someone there really doesn't believe then they will suspect that some kind of magical method was used even if there wasn't. So why not give the group a little extra by mixing it up a bit? Or is this just completely unethical? Does this even make sense? It does in my head. But that doesn't always mean it translates well in to the written word
The Magic Cafe account of The Conwy Jester, Erwyd le Fol formerly known as Roslyn Walker.
My home online Join me on Facebook Follow me on twitter |
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
I was talking about three types.
One is a very powerful hypnotic guided visualization. IMO that's as legit as it gets. The second is an ungaffed type, using psychological methods. I still consider this legit because the cause of anything that happens depends on your worldview. The third would obviously include psychology, but be gaffed. The first has nothing that could be mistaken as gaffed. The second and third could be blurred in peoples minds, but I would prefer to keep them clearly separate. Right now I'm thinking to stay with the first two types.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
Bill Fienning Special user 635 Posts |
Brother Shadow's Ritual of the Rock is somewhat along the lines of a hypnotic guided visualization. He presents it as a real, i.e., not fake or tricked, experience.
Keeping the "real medium" and "theatrical medium" personas separate and (both) believable seems difficult to me. I prefer to have a single, theatrical medium persona. The audience has been given information well before the performance that this is a theatrical seance, but I do not disclaim at any point before, during or after the seance. After all, it is a show.
Bill Fienning
"It's More than Tricks" |
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
I wonder if I was thinking about it the wrong way.
I consider (for myself personally) certain things to be legit or even real, but I wouldn't necessarily market them that way because that would eliminate the skeptics. In general I like the idea of being ambiguous; and this would also give me freedom (hopefully) to experiment a bit, because I 've only done a couple seances and I just don't know yet what I like the best or what goes over the best. I do really like doing my hypnotic visualization (which IMO is completely real); so maybe my question should be wether or not I can do theatrical seances (perhaps leaving it ambiguous as to what if anything is real) and still do something like a home seance party that focuses on this 'inner journey.' ...I just wonder because, while I know the visualization is powerful and the people I've done it with agree, I am afraid some people would be disappointed with it and want more theatrics. I suppose my "ad copy" would make it fairly clear. How about this, on my theoretical future website (I will eventually a completely separate one just for psychic entertainment), I would have a page on seance offering two types of seance: -a home seance. No claims made, but the advertisement would make it clear that there would be ghostly discussions, readings from my spirit guide and it would culminate on an inner journey, in the sitters own mind to meet a loved one or spirit guide. -a theatrical seance. No claims would be made but no disclaimers either and there might be specific seances available in this area, like a Jack the Ripper Seance or a fictional character seance (contacting the egregore of a fictional character is a very exciting idea to me ...just theoretical at this point). If my train of though makes sense I would REALLY appreciate any thoughts that any of you have on this.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
jamiesalinas Special user Houston 728 Posts |
Can someone clarify for me something...
What Happens in a "Real Seance"? The only reference I have is the last Houdini seance where nothing happened unless you consider the rain at the end. BTW: My seances are marketed as a theatrical recreation. They are held at a known haunted location. We have had independent ghost hunters capture EVP's, psychics claim the presences of multiple spirits and several "events" that were not of my doing unless you count me creating the mood and environment for these "events" to occur. Jamie
Jamie Salinas
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seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
For me, I think there is more than one thing that could be called a real seance.
A medium could: -contact their spirit guide and give readings -contact deceased persons either directly or through the spirit guide. -contact a specific ghost or spirit, such as one who has been haunting an area A group leader could lead a guided visualization where members use their imagination A group could form a circle (literal or figurative) attempting to contact any spirits that would like to come through, or perhaps a specific spirit. They might use a device like a ouija board or try to contact the spirits more directly through a dark seance ...in this last case many things could happen, ...or potentially nothing. If the events that occurred during the seances you described are really not of your doing, then I would probably consider them to be real seances. In fact they sound like very good seances; ghost hunters, psychics and manifestations ...cool!
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
Roslyn Inner circle UK 3405 Posts |
Hi,
This is a really great thread and I'm enjoying reading all your thoughts and ideas on this. I am relatively new to the bizarre magick world, but I've been performing escapes and sideshow professionally for quite a few years now and these two things have led me to start looking more at bizarre stuff. From my "bizarre newbie" mind it seems to me that the best seances are those that are left open ended. Where the audience simply doesn't know where they were being led or where they will end up. For example, if you advertise your seance as a Jack the Ripper Seance your audience knows they will "contact" Jack. Why not leave that as a surprise? Instead I'd prefer to perform a "legit" seance and combine it with the odd piece of theatrics here and there if those theatrics are needed. Have them ready to go but only trigger something if the "real" stuff isn't working. I'm thinking of a ouija board demonstration. This can work with no help from the performer. However, what if your audience isn't really into it? What if it doesn't work? Do you just walk off and say the spirits are all elsewhere? As a professional I feel I need to deliver what I'm being paid to deliver. Therefore I would always have a backup to cover my back and keep things moving. Also, I always have certain bits in my current show that I don't always use. That play HUGE to the right audience, but flop to the wrong ones. I've not just ditched those things but keep them back and then pull them out when the time is right. Another example, I love the idea of Dolly Darko and I can see that this beautiful prop when used by the right performer could quite easily be turned in to something that appears very real. In fact combining a prop like Dolly with the hypnotic visualisation type seances and the right back story you could have a really powerful performance piece that could play in a home or on stage. If the visualisation stuff is working then just use Dolly as a gorgeous prop to help that visualisation and give meaning to the story, but if the mood is right you could also add one or more of the "features" you get with Dolly. I don't think all the features that Dolly comes with are right for every situation but, as I said, I think that every professional performer needs to have something in reserve just in case what you plan to do doesn't work out for what ever reason.
The Magic Cafe account of The Conwy Jester, Erwyd le Fol formerly known as Roslyn Walker.
My home online Join me on Facebook Follow me on twitter |
Stefan New user 78 Posts |
[quote]On 2010-11-22 01:08, jamiesalinas wrote:
What Happens in a "Real Seance"? Wellll, there are many types of seances, in the past 100 years sometimes a reading has been presented as a seance with the reading being a message from the other side, Bob Nelson mentions this somewhere. Channeling a spirit type seance - see the movie "Curse of the Demon" for a cool one. A cabinet Seance which can be as simple as a curtain thrown across a corner of the room. The classic table seance has the attendees around a table holding hands. Seances have been presented on stage, such as when Houdini or Hereward Carrington did their expose demonstrations. There is plenty of material to read on this stuff and somewhat fun and interesting to read. |
seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Curse of the Demon was great.
I have to admit I'm blanking on the seance scene (it's been a long time) ...what a perfect excuse to watch it again!
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
MRSharpe Special user Never a dull moment with 940 Posts |
This is a very interesting topic and I'm disappointed that I haven't spent much time on Magic Café in years and in fact have just started a new account. This post is coming about 3 years after the rest of you posted, so you may never see my comments. When one says 'seance' the meaning is a religious ritual in which a sensitive medium contacts and communicates with the spirits of the dead for those observing the ritual. Therefore, if you aren't doing that then the event is not a legitimate seance. I'm not trying to judge anyone, including the original poster of the thread, but anything else is not legitimate. Every other seance is created for entertainment purposes. Now, if you are using purely psychological means of achieving the effect of contacting the spirits of the dead, that is just one method of creating atmosphere and establishing a suspension of disbelief in a theatrical sense. From there one may use various means of trickery to establish the effect of contacting the spirits of the dead, but that does not make the seance any more legitimate. It does make it more or less likely that the person performing the role of the 'medium' will be exposed during the performance, but it does not make the seance more legitimate to use none of the techniques of trickery during the performance. When one uses the phrase 'theatrical seance' it may be better to use the phrase 'themed seance' instead since the references above were made to exactly that, Eg. a Jack the Ripper seance. When one establishes such a theme, one is taking a step back from the difficult task of getting an audience member or members who disbelieve in the possibility of contacting the spirits of the dead to suspend disbelief during the performance. The job of a 'seance medium' who does not claim to be in actual contact with the spirits of the dead is to create atmosphere, suspension of disbelief, and the experience on the part of the participants that they have witnessed an actual seance, regardless of the method or methods being used to do so.
Custom Props Designer and Fabricator as well as Performer from Indiana, USA
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Brynmore13 Elite user Australia 485 Posts |
Bob Cassidy's Seance ebook and teleseminar has some interesting things to say about running a successful seance and the various types of seance. I've only just got a copy, but enjoyed it very much. If anyone has a list of must-have Seance books, I'd love to know what they are and why they are a must-have. Pm is fine, if folks are concerned about hijacking this thread.
All is perceived through the gate of the mind.
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