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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
If you get some knowledge out of (fair) Poker books, it has nothing to do with cheating. You improve your strategy, the way you're gonna use odds, etc. It's up to every player to get as proficient as that, to master the game. If you are a low level player and want to compete with pros, you're just an idiot.
Counting cards is not cheating. Same than above, you use your brain to improve a strategy, to make good decisions. Again, everyone can learn it. If you try to glimpse a bottom card, it's cheating. Not everyone can perform sleight of hands. It's off the rules to glimpse cards because you get a temporary advantage on other players. It's cheating because you try to break something out of the moment to get some advantage. When you count cards you break nothing, you don't prevent someone else around the table to play, you bother nobody. The difference is obvious to me. Say everyone is glimpsing the bottom card, there's no cheating any more, your advantage is cancelled. If you spot an Ace in someone's hand and try to cancel the round calling for a misdeal, you break the other player advantage on purpose, you try to counterfeit something which doesn't have to. I understand your concept of gray area, but to me there is no gray area. You play fairly or you don't. If you play cards for 30 years and master odds, probabilities, the subtleties of the game, have a staggering background and have to face a stupid beginner knowing nothing, it has nothing to do with cheating, the guy's an idiot. I'd agree it has to do with morality though. But what is morality in the 21th century? |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
I do not undersand your above post. When you see an Ace in another players hand are you saying you should or should not say anything? If you do not you have an uhfair advantage knowing he has one Ace for sure. If you do you also know he has an Ace high card. So whichis it? You cannot hae it both ways. Just for your info if you mention that a player has an Ace in his hand and you feel that there should be a mix deal expect that player to tell you to mind your own business or punch you in the mouth especially if his other card is an ace. Think before you speak. Also he is going to ask why were you looking at his hand? (read below about hand protection)
If you see a dealer flash a card and he deals it to the bottom quater of the deck do you say you saw it because it wil not come into play? I really do not feel you play enough cards to know what cheating is and what being observant is. There is a difference. I haveto be blunt with you here because you come across as yo are positive that cheting is if you see a cad flashed by a clumsy player you shuld cancel the hand. You have tao be kidding. It woudl be so easy to cancel hands if that were the case when I had a bad hand and was geting beaten inthe hand. Lets be realistic here. REMEMBER THIS WELL. "THE PLAYER" MUST PROTECT HIS CARDS AT ALL TIMES. IF THE DEALER TAKES THEM ACCIDENTLY IT IS THE PLAYERS FAULT NOT THE DEALER. THINK ABOUT THAT. THEN THINK BACK TO WHAT YOU SAY IS CHEATING. THE PLAYER HAS RESPONSIBILITY OVER HIS CARDS. END OF STORY. Playing cards for money is in many instances serious business. The players must assume responsibility over their cards. No one is going to baby sit them. Now, "Shuffle up and deal".
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Yes you're absolutely right, about everything; to be honest I don't even know what a card is.
Now, have fun all alone because you nickname is now part of my "I won't waste time with such people" list. Cordially. |
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Maitre D Veteran user 339 Posts |
Arnold, explain to me how making note of a particular player (in poker) not shuffling adequately is any different than following a slug of counted cards throughout a shuffle in blackjack (shuffle tracking). It's the same thing in principle, yet in poker you call it cheating whereas in blackjack you find it acceptable. Keep in mind in blackjack you are bothering somebody with your advantage -- the house, whether it be in the casino or private game.
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Shuffle tracking is cheating in my mind.
Man, we'll talk about that elsewhere, I give up here... |
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Maitre D Veteran user 339 Posts |
You think shuffle tracking is cheating? Faux reals? Be aware you may be the only person outside of casino management that think so.
Anyway, I wish you would have responded to acesover's post rather than getting your panties in a bunch and running off. He made some excellent points and you only make yourself look bad the way you handled it. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
AMcD,
I thought at one time you had some card knowledge but I can see where I was wrong. Honestly don't try and tell me about card playing especially poker or about pool or book making because I do not care what your credentials you are out of your league. There I said it. So now if you stick to your last post you will just ignore this. Yes I think it best that you give up here as you have nothing to offer. That is the most intelligent thing you posted here...that is giving up. Thanks
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
People often move the goal posts when "cheating" is personally defined because in the instance of Blackjack you are playing against the house, and in Poker you are playing against another player.
I do not see card counting as the same as glimpsing a card by accident of another player. I see a weak dealer who unintentionally flips a card in Blackjack, or any of the thousands of ways you get the information by accident. I think the key in my mind at least is all about "intent". If you are LOOKING for the cards I would think that crosses a line. That is where I would draw it personally. I have no idea about the law, and no idea about what others may think. In card counting I am simply keeping track of what has happened with my brain. NOT trying to get extra information. I do not see either as cheating in MY OPINION. (It means nothing more than the way I conduct myself, not a law or anything of a declaration.)
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Acesover,
Maitre D is a nice friend of mine, I'm then gonna do you a favour. I'm talking about CHEATING. You get that word? To act dishonestly; To violate rules deliberately. If you can understand the preceding words, then you have my point. But apparently you prefer insulting people than trying to understand their readings. I'm gonna detail it a bit for you then. Let's take Hold'em. What are the basic rules of a fair game? 1) Cards are shuffled as randomly as possible. We want to break sequences, not to give someone memorizing cards some kind of advantage. If you shuffle track some cards or slug, YOU'RE CHEATING! Intentionally you try to break the random part. For you, the cards are not randomly shuffled. You have an unfair advantage. 2) Cards are dealt privately (hole cards). You understand that word, privately? If you see someone's else card they're not private any more. If you don't tell it to the others guys at the table, you then get an unfair advantage, YOU'RE CHEATING! I'm talking about ethics man, you don't need a rule for that! It has to do with the way you behave INTENTIONALLY. You say that "THE PLAYER HAS RESPONSIBILITY OVER HIS CARDS. END OF STORY." or "No one is going to baby sit them.", not only that's funny but that's also pathetic. You can't control everything, you can't know everything. Say you pay attention to your cards, you do your best not to flash them. That's OK. But what about a careless dealer flashing it unintentionally while dealing? Someone is gonna get an information about you despite the fact you were very cautious. There are hundreds of ways to flash cards, whether you are very responsible or not. Bay sitting people? Oh, then you know everything? You know every hustling technique? You need no help, no education about anything? You just make me laugh. Say you turn your head five seconds and I steal one chip out of your stack. What would you say? ***, I had to be more cautious, they're my chips, it's my responsibility. Say someone doesn't bet the exact total he's supposed to bet. What would you say? ***, I had to check it myself, it's my game, it's my responsibility to pay attention to every detail. Gimme a break man! You can't control everything, pay attention to every detail. You can't ask a hired permanent dealer to prove any deal is 100% fair. What about morality and dignity? Good manners? Playing fairly is behaving as a gentleman. The split second you try to intentionally use something unfair, you're cheating, that's all. When you see someone's else hole card as far as I know it's out of any Poker rules, I've never read in any Poker rule that you had to try to see your opponents cards. Strategy, knowledge is something else. When you use odds, compute probabilities and so on, it's just using mathematical laws in order to make a decision. You get no unfair advantage doing that, you steal no one. Anyone can use such weapons. What extra information you get that no one around you at the same table could get? None! Why counting cards would be cheating? It's just an estimation, probabilities you make about the next cards coming. Nothing to do with cheating! Let's make it brief. Cheating, to me, is when you intentionally keep an unfair information or when you deliberately try to get that unfair information. Cheating occurs when you behave intentionally in a way to get unfair advantage on your opponents. Cheating is when you use bad manners and don't play as a gentleman. And don't give me that **** "Poker is a war, blablabla". Last point, very important to me. Attitude and self respect. Me, once in a while, I cheat. Bottom dealing, stacking, deuces, redeal, shuffle tracking, etc. I've got no trouble to admit I'm a bad person when I do that. I'm cheating, I'm a cheat, I'm a jerkoff. But I have the courage and the honesty to face it and to admit it! When you see a hole card you shouldn't see and say nothing because according to you it's not cheating, well, you're just pathetic, because you disguise your bad behaviour with a portentous figure of speech. Yet you know you're cheating, but lack of honesty and sincerity blinds your judgement. I have no respect at all for people cheating and wanting to make us to believe they're not or that's not really cheating, etc. When you cheat, you cheat. Face it. |
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splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
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Cheating occurs when you behave intentionally in a way to get unfair advantage on your opponents. An unfair advantage is one that is gained over other players by using knowledge that is not available to the other players. Tracking a slug is not unfair. Everyone had the opportunity to memorize the cards, and everyone sees the shuffle. Peeking the card on the bottom of the deck and tracking it would be crossing a line. Memorizing and tracking cards that came on the flop or were revealed to all players should not be considered cheating. It's the responsibility of the dealer to shuffle the cards so that the arrangement is random. Quote:
Cheating is when you use bad manners and don't play as a gentleman. That's a pretty stupid thing to say. Poker has never been about good manners or being a gentleman, and you're plain making **** up if you really believe that. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Wrong. I never condoned "Cheating" as you describe it. In fact we agree on that part . Here is your description: I'm talking about ethics man, you don't need a rule for that! It has to do with the way you behave INTENTIONALLY. The key word here is even in caps in your description "INTENTIONALLY". To that definition I whole heartly agree.
Also I have to address taking any explanation on ethics from someone who cheats on occasion. In other words you cheat INTENTIONALLY. I do not need your explanation of ethics because you have none. Also you say: Let's make it brief. Cheating, to me, is when you intentionally keep an unfair information or when you deliberately try to get that unfair information. Cheating occurs when you behave intentionally in a way to get unfair advantage on your opponents. Cheating is when you use bad manners and don't play as a gentleman. To which I say: "I do not cheat period". Someone flashes their cards whose fault is that if I see them accidently? It sure as heck is not my fault. Suppose we just fourth street in holdem and I see a card flashed because he was careless. Do I say to everyone Tom has a King of spades? Is the hand supposed to end there? If you are so sincere and believe that is cheating; although I cannot see how that would bother you as you are already an admitted cheat, why do you just not fold even if you have the best hand? I will tell you why. Because what you are saying here makes no sense and you know it. Adressing wataching the amounts bet at the table is everyones reponsibility at that table. Casino is a different story. You place your bet in front of you and the dealer after checking puts it all into the pot at the end of the betting sequence. I definitely hold fast with my statement tht the player is responsible for his own cards and no one else. You bring up your huystling technique and cheating again and say that I know everything...no I do not and I never said I do. But I have caught a few in my time and probably missed many. Proof being that when I caught them I am sure it was not their first time. If you steal a chp out of my stack you have a big set because if you know me you would not chance it. I have to many friends that you would have to deal with and I do not think you would think it was worth the effort. You also mention about my watching my game. I very seldom play in my own games. However I do on occasion. Also not givinig you **** that poker is war. However don't give me **** that it is a bunch of friends just out having fun. Because most people like to play on the edge and play where if they win it means something to them if they win. Let me ask you? Will you play limit for .05 and .10? I would imagine your answer is No. Because if after a few hours you may win 10 or 15 dollars. But I am quite sure you would probably play limit poker for $10 and $20 or better $5 $10 no limit. Because your winnings could mean something to you. Take the wife out for dinner. Treat yourself to that watch you have been looking at etc. 5 and 10 cents is not going to make that happen. This part is going off topic sorry. But it does address one of your above comments. The poker is war comment. I play poker because I have a passion for the game and cheating would diminish that for me. Winning only adds to that passion and losing makes me look back and see what I did wrong or did I just run into one of those bad runs. I am glad Maitre D is a friend of yours. Having said that just take what he said as constructive critism as my comments were just to get you pi**ed off. While his were to help you. You are obviously more knowledgable in card cheating than myslef but I do not believe you have the pokker knowledge I have. While this may sound like self praise I truly feel this way. I have read just about every poker book out there (that in of itself does not make one knowledgable playing thousands and thousands of hours as I have helps) that has been printed for the last 40 years and many before that. Some have valid points and some not so valid and some downright wrong. I have yet to find one that is 100% perfect in my mind. If I were to write a book today and read it next month I would probably find fault with some of my thinking, however I have no such intention. Probably would only sell about 10 copies anyway. I would not even approach the subject of cheating and cheating sleights. OK got to get off my soap box. Thanks for reading this far. It had to be a chore.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
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On 2011-01-31 20:35, AMcD wrote: Arnold, I don't see it. Odd, that on this one we seem to be switched... If I'm playing and someone shuffles overhand, and I spot the bottom card-I am paying attention. Not goose necking or anything like that. If someone goes to cut, and cuts high and I see a card, its not cheating, its being observant. Or that's how I see it.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
I think the most important thing to remember is that everyone sees cheating differently. We all are different, so, many ways to understand things. I have no problem with that.
Kevin, To me, when you play fairly, you don't have to watch or stare at the guy shuffling the deck . Splice, You've got no sense of humour at all... acesover, I'm glad to read we share some thoughts. Unfortunately, you take things too hard and you look like to absolutely understand bad or wrong things in my writings. There are none. As stated above, just a different opinion about what is cheating or not. I don't know whether I am a good Poker player or not. I've won dozen or tournaments, even some leagues. On the square! I've read something like 20 books, the best ones or supposedly so. I wouldn't say I'm Stu Ungar or Johnny Chan but, honestly, I think you would have a tough fight to separate me from my bankroll. I don't cheat that much nowadays. I don't play big games and I'm not part of a crew of hustlers. I don't have a partner, I don't use one for ages. Cheating doesn't diminish the pleasure I have for cards because I really enjoy sleights of hand, the psychology involved with crooked games, etc. It's another side of cards... I play mainly for the fun of it (I just do my best not to lose money) and, for the last years, for little money as they say in UK. Then cheating is not worth the risks. But $25 or $250 makes no difference to me. If you try to swindle me, I'll use my weapons! That's my rules. I've been educated the hard way with cards: been robbed many times. I had to find a way to protect myself in such a cases. I did. I'm happy for you if you never face cheats, if all the games you play are on the square and if someone glimpsing a flashed hole card is not considered as a cheat. We are different. I see it differently. Nothing more . |
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splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
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On 2011-02-01 14:59, AMcD wrote: A common refrain from comedians whose jokes are lame and not at all funny, if they even rate as jokes. |
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
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On 2011-02-01 15:40, splice wrote: Also a common refrain from people full of hate/disdain/arrogance or with a superiority complex. |
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Maitre D Veteran user 339 Posts |
Arnold, you are being absolutely ridiculous, as usual.
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splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
Just Arnold being Arnold. I'd point out just how his "joke" fails on every level, but I think we know what that would lead to ("english not my first language, no one understands what I mean, I'm being victimized", etc).
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
It simply leads to someone with different points of views than yours.
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kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
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On 2011-02-01 14:59, AMcD wrote: As your first sentence proves my point, but when I mean paying attention, I don't mean watching with hawkeyes at the dealer. It happens, some people are bad shufflers. Its also great that here we are, arguing about what is cheating in a forum that is usually about cheating and the main person going against people admits he cheats By my view, I have never cheated.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
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