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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I believe that it is impossible to be a great magician without understanding magic theory. Too many magicians are learning from videos and downloadable digital videos and are not getting the thought-provoking background of magical theory that was so much a part of all the great classical books of magic.
Theory is, after all, only a statement of what we are trying to accomplish, along with why and how. If you can explain that, then you have a theory of magic. If you can't, then you don't know what you are doing. |
leefoley3 Elite user Texas 402 Posts |
Excellent!! The same can be said about music composition. It amazes me how one form of art can have so much in common with another. Regardless of the medium used or how it is expressed. I tip my hat to you, Mr. Haydn.
In December of '06 I was diagnosed with a very rare cancer, Dermatofibrosarcoma Protuberans. One in a million people worldwide are diagnosed with this type of cancer annually. Sarcomas account for 1% of all cancers. Knowledge is power!
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MagicRoller New user The Netherlands 2 Posts |
G R E A T thought!!!
How many times don't we see people buying tricks and performing them out of the box, with the written text which was included instead of being creative and using all the great theories and thoughts to bring "a trick" to a higher level and turning it into a miracle. I completely agree with the post above,
Louis Baerts is one of the owners and member of DutchMagic, the centre of the magic market in the Netherlands.
Check also MagicExperience.nl and MagicMovieMadness.nl |
Dr_Gonzo New user Brighton 22 Posts |
I agree with you, that a great magician will have to understand the theory behind their magic, and I believe that part of being a great magician is expanding those theories. However, as you so aptly put in your other article you have to be a good magician before you become a great one, and I do not believe that theory is important, or necessarily that helpful. To use the common music analogy, there is no need for a beginning musician to know music theory to move towards being a good musician. Scales and so on are techniques which can be derived from theory. Learn a few scales, and you'll probably learn a bit of music theory at the same time, and I believe the same can be said of magic. However, the theory is subsidiary to technique and application of technique until a person reaches a certain level in their art. Once they reach this level, theory starts becoming applicable, as rather than being a set of "rules", they can see how the theory was generated from their own experiences, and how best to apply it. This, I would say, is part of the growth of a good magician.
I'm sure some people will be thinking at this "well you can't become a concert pianist without knowing music theory", and that is very true, but it is true because that particular form of music requires a good knowledge of theory to be able to perform it well, in my opinion. I would suggest (though from absolutely no personal knowledge as I've never done any) that large scale stage illusions require a fair amount of magical theory in order to perform well. Of course, feel free to fill another subset of magic if you think of a better fit I think that the easy ways of learning are just fine. On their own they wont produce great magicians, that point cannot be argued. However, they will certainly produce a number of magicians of varying skills, and I believe they have a good chance of producing magicians that will go on to be just as great as ones who started more traditionally. |
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Dr_Gonzo:
In some ways I agree with you. Certainly, I believe that many good and even great magicians may come from the video and internet "easy ways of learning." Nevertheless, in order to become good, they will have to learn magic theory, otherwise, they will be either constantly reinventing the wheel of magic theory, or coming up with original presentations that are inferior because they lack correct misdirection, timing, purpose and meaning. The problem with the "soft road" is that the connections to the masters are not being made. I may not have understood or cared about Maskelyne and Devant when I first started out, but I knew who they were because my mentors and the books I read referenced them. I knew who created the tricks that I liked best, and knew where to go when I wanted to study that artist's work more closely. The way tricks are sometimes treated now, like commodities, being stripped of their names, their creators and their histories, makes the new student an orphan inheriting an unorganized and confusing wealth of both good and bad "tricks." The vast amount of bad magic being palmed off on unsuspecting beginners who have no real guide to the styles and thinking of the masters, makes it hard for the neophyte to find his way to the good stuff that he might well be capable of performing. In fact, without guidance he might never be able to develop the sense of taste in magic that enables him to separate the good from the bad--that is a big part of what magic theory does for one. The huge wealth of material both good and bad that is available now in books, dvds, videos, downloadable digital files, ebooks, etc. makes it very hard for the beginning magician to know where to start, what to study. The real secrets of magic are being buried under a ton of ****. This has both good and bad aspects. On the one hand, the secrets of great magic are becoming more arcane and once again becoming the possession of a few. The bad is that a lot of bad magic is being learned and performed, and that can do more harm to magic than anything else. Further, the connections to the masters, the history and the dialogue of the great creators of magic is being broken up and, not lost, but hidden from the student who does not know the way in, because he doesn't know the sources of what he has already learned. |
magicofmagic New user 81 Posts |
Great post Whit
The only way forward for the beginning student is through mentoring. They need a point of reference to emulate. Seeing a great magician work makes all the difference in the world. A young magician asked for help recently in terms of books. I said to him what books are you reading he mentioned books published within the last two years. I said to him that he needs an older collection of books starting if possible, from the 1800 right up to 1960. The 1980's with the publication of the Dingle book was a massive leap for all of us up to the publication of the Jennings book, everything else is a poor carbon copy. Onwards Michael Vincent
Michael Vincent
21st Century Magic |
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Thanks, Michael.
If anyone understands magic theory and its importance to both performing and creating magic it is you. Thanks again for joining in this discussion. |
leefoley3 Elite user Texas 402 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-09-02 23:10, Dr_Gonzo wrote: Dr_Gonzo: I used the connection of music theory with the theory of magic because I am a musician. I have been for a lot longer than I have been a magician. While what you say may very well pertain to a BEGINNER it will never pertain to a true musician. I make my living in Music Therapy and just for the "record" scales are not techniques, they are scales. You can spend years learning various "scales" and never learn one thing about music theory. It's just the opposite. I also respectfully disagree with your response to the same applying to magic. It is best to study BOTH in conjunction with one another.
In December of '06 I was diagnosed with a very rare cancer, Dermatofibrosarcoma Protuberans. One in a million people worldwide are diagnosed with this type of cancer annually. Sarcomas account for 1% of all cancers. Knowledge is power!
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
what is magic theory?
I understand the word 'theory' as used in science. Not so sure what the word means in this craft. to we have magic hypothesis? what is a well formed hypothesis in magic? experiments? an esthetic of parsimony? what are we trying to make a theory of?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
Whit,
I agree with both your previous posts in general terms. That being said, what to do? I kind of like the idea that magic is becoming more arcane. That is the way it was when I started out. I had to earn the trust of mentors, and to study and experiment, to practice and perform, often with painful results, in order to grow. The growing lessons stuck with me though, and all the more because they were so painful. Maybe that's the way it should be again. On the other hand, I dearly love this art, and I feel a responsibility to pass on the gifts that were given me by those who came before me. Whose responsibility is it, anyway? The students - to seek out mentors and books, to search for the knowledge they need? And how do you do that if you don't even know what you don't know? You can't begin to look for something if you don't know that something exists! Or is it the responsibility of the few, the lucky ones who have that knowledge? Should they (we) be freely offering it up? And to who? What are the criteria for membership, for entree, to this most esoteric of worlds, "the inner circle"? (Note: tongue firmly planted in cheek!) I often think this: That the secrets don't matter in a certain way, that I can give all the information I have to anyone in the magic world, and there are but a few who will really "get it", the rest will move on and "forget it". I should freely share, because it's better for it to be available to the few who want it at the risk of the many cursorily reading it, than to bury it from everyone and have it lost forever. But I must admit, it is a fine line, deciding what to keep and what to give away, who to give it to and who to keep it from. When are you helping and when are you hindering? It may be more helpful to force a student to work really hard to get that arcane knowledge he so desires than to hand it to him on a platter. On the other hand you may be slowing down the process for no good reason. Again, what to do? Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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Steven Steele Chief of Staff 1868 Posts |
Jontown,
You are mixing the 'scientific method' with 'theory', two related yet different topics. I look to this discussion (as a trained physicist/mathematician) that there is theoretical science and applied science. You can be a good scientist using applied mathematics, but the person that learned theoretical mathematics will have an edge in the creative development of mathematics. As applied to magic, a person that understands the principles of misdirection as taught by Fitzkee will be able to apply those principles across many different fields of magic. Whereas a person that learns to vanish a coin via the french drop, will simply know how to vanish a coin via the french drop. The theories of magic I would think are similar to psychological theories. There are theories that various professionals use, but the theories themselves can't be proven or disproven empirically, yet. So they remain...theories. Magic theories are similar...they seem to work, but there are no experiments to prove/disprove them, they just are. Steven
Coram Deo
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MagicalPirate Special user Shamokin, PA 828 Posts |
I think those of us that are older may have had an easier time of it than the newbies coming up today. Back in 1970 at 13 when I got into magic the only choices were to read or be taught. I was fortunate in that my first magic shop I went to the owner took me under his wing and provided me with private lessons. In those days I didn't have a lot to spend, but I tended to buy books over tricks. My early additions to my library included the Fitzkee Trilogy. I studied both how to do as well as what to do.
Maybe if someone came out with a video that covered theory then the Microwave group might have to learn something after all. Or maybe it would just be the worst selling magic video ever produced. The young are eager to learn the how to. Maybe the older just need to change up the feeding schedule so that a round of why to gets include in between the "Main" coureses. I would have to say I was fortunate growing up in Southern California. Having Stan Allen as my magic shop owner and the Long Beach Mystics to be a part of. Michael Weber as the kid demonstrating magic behind the counter. I haven't seen him in years, but as good as he was as a teenager, he must be awesome today. I don't know if the experience would have been the same if I had grown up in Texas where I live now. The theory is important but how do we present it so that it is as exciting as the how to. I remember having to take musical theory in school, it was not as exciting as playing my musical instruments. We all dreaded going to class. If we are to see to it that the theory is carried forward, we will have to dress it up so that it isn't the dreaded course.
Martin Blakley, CSH, DASH, CMSA
http://www.thehypnoguy.com/HYPNORESOURCES http://www.docgrayson.com/ How To Sell Anything Online http://tub.bz/?r=1z Copyright to my own words retained 100%. |
alexhui Inner circle Hong Kong 1956 Posts |
Whit,
Sorry for my late joining of your excellent thread. Being away from Café for a long time, I have re-thought about magic alot. First of all, I totally agree with you that magic theory is very important to both performance and creating. Understanding the mechanism of magic is far more important than the number of tricks we can do. Cos magic is not just showing off your skills or ability, but astonish and entertaining people. It is very common that beginners like to learn thousands of tricks and show them to friends everyday. But when we 'grow up' in magic, we will usually perform 'less' tricks than we do in the past. It is because we understand magic more at this stage now. We know that we don't have to perform tons of tricks to get recognised. I think this tread is very interesting and I will post more soon. Alex (Cos I am at work now....)
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Hi, Alex. Good to hear from you. Look forward to your thoughts.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
JonTown:
The theory of magic is simply the answer to the basic questions: What is Magic? How does it work? What does it do/what is it for? Why do we do it? What is it's relationship to the other arts? How is it different from other art forms? Why is it worthwhile/useful/meaningful/valuable? What are we seeking to accomplish with magic? How best should we go about doing magic? What is the structure of magic? What are the essential requirements for creating magic? Magic involves deception, so how does it relate to other forms of deception like con games, charlatanry, swindling, lying, theft? How is it the same as these? How is it different from these? Is magic an art? Are there different kinds of magic? How are they different? How are they similar? Why would someone want to do magic? How does magic effect the audience? Why do people respond to magic? What do they get from magic? How is magic related to theater? To other performing arts? What are our primary objectives in performing magic? A theory of magic is simply an attempt to analyze and answer questions like these. There is no single theory of magic, but many that have been proposed. The better theories answer more questions than the others. A theory that answers a lot of these questions helps us to have an internal integrity in our magic--a consistency of method and intent. I think that an artist who does not know why he does what he does, what his work is for in the greater scheme of things, is an artist without conviction, vision or purpose. Probably not an artist at all. Maskelyne and Devant felt it was very important to understand these kinds of questions if magic was ever to become a true art form, and not simply a pastime activity or hobby like stamp collecting or winding string balls. Theory is important because it helps us to define who we are as magicians and what we are trying to accomplish with magic. Theory is what makes our art more powerful, meaningful, and satisfying. |
S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
I teach mathematics in college, and find that I have a sizable contingent of students who hate learning theory; all they want is techniques; preferably algorithmic.
They'll never be mathematicians. This ties in neatly with your thread on bad magic. Many "improvements" on classical effects are ruinous because their purveyors have no understanding of the theory of the original effect: if you do not understand how or why something works it is folly to try to make it work better. |
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
S2000magician:
Hi, Bill. Good point. I agree completely. If you look at the thread on theater and magic, you will see another good example of how theory can be applied. What is the difference between the art of magic, and the theatrical experience of magic? When examing two different approaches to similar tricks, like David Copperfield's floating mirror ball, and Blackstone's floating light bulb, you have to know something about theory in order just to understand the difference between the two approaches. If you are an artist trying to choose between one approach and another, you have to have some background in theory just in order to proceed. |
invalidity Regular user 170 Posts |
Mr Hadyn,
Apart from Maskelyne and Devant's book what books do you recommend for someone starting out in seeking to learn magic theory? I am currently seeking out a copy of Darwin Ortiz's Strong Magic. What is your opinion of this book? |
Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I enjoyed the book very much. I think it is an excellent book, and extremely thought-provoking. Darwin is a very good and precise thinker, and an excellent writer. I think his book is a better place to start even than Our Magic, since it is much more accessible. But don't miss out on Our Magic eventually.
Also works by Tamariz, Dariel Fitzkee's books, and Eugene Burger's and Tommy Wonder's writings. I haven't had a chance yet to read Derren Brown's Absolute Magic, but from the reviews and what I have heard, it should be very worthwhile. Don't get confused by the different approaches taken by each. They all are saying important things, but from different points of view, and with different emphasis. There is no one right answer, just different perspectives from distinct and accomplished performers who have thought long and hard about what they do, and how, and why. |
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