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dusty Veteran user 352 Posts |
I have just stumbled across this site and wondered why his local magic set haven't put him staight about exposing marketeed effects.
http://www.youtube.com/azukinimagician
Regards,
Dusty aka Max Gordon. "Always give 100%, Unless you're a blood donor!" Exclusive publications available from: www.solutions.yolasite.com |
stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Maybe because everyone falls asleep watching the kid, so no one gets to the exposure part.
Seriously, I think the boring presentation these kids demonstrate is worse than the exposure. (And they are legion, Dusty; you may have just stumbled upon him by accident, but with effort you could easily find at least 1000 kids who have done exactly the same thing.) |
dusty Veteran user 352 Posts |
So long as they stay in their bedroom! I just hope that when they get older, they are ostracised (I was going to use another word here...) by the magic community. I still think that they need to be given the message that this is simply not acceptable. Not exactly sure how though.
Regards,
Dusty aka Max Gordon. "Always give 100%, Unless you're a blood donor!" Exclusive publications available from: www.solutions.yolasite.com |
stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
None of us really know, and we've talked about it again and again.
It's not just the exposure that bothers me, but the "as soon as you learn something you can be a teacher" mentality--which pushes much deeper into our culture than the craft of magic into questioning the nature of education in general. It somehow denies that there is anything like a "master". You just learn a trick/mathematical equation/scientific principle/interpretation of a poem (ad infinitum) and you are then qualified to "teach" it. If that were true, then what value do your teachers have? Once, a couple of years ago, I did an experiment. I typed, "Plato cave analogy" into the YouTube search engine and got dozens of hits from kids "teaching" it, using everything from stick figures to hand puppets. Who knows what's up there now? Now, the truth is that it made me laugh--it's all in fun, after all, and why not? But fun aside, what does it say about the role of the "master"? My guess, Dusty, is that most of them will ever join the magic "community". YouTube is their community. You don't join IBM or something like that; you set up a "channel" and ask people to "subscribe". In other words, you become your own Master--but a master with no real apprentices. THAT disturbs me much more than exposure. When it comes to exposure, who is even watching them? Just us, by accident, and then we get huffy (and bored). |
dusty Veteran user 352 Posts |
Quote: You're probably spot on. Doesn't mean we should not send the boys round...it's hard to expose tricks with your hands in plaster....!On 2011-10-04 10:39, stoneunhinged wrote:
Regards,
Dusty aka Max Gordon. "Always give 100%, Unless you're a blood donor!" Exclusive publications available from: www.solutions.yolasite.com |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-10-04 10:47, dusty wrote: And when his webcam video of you trespassing, assaulting, battering... that person goes viral you'll have done so much to improve reputation of this community. No thanks in advance.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
How 'bout this...
We should stop selling all Magic effects to anyone who is willing to pay. (Just share secrets amongst our trusted peers...) Then kids like this won't have anything to expose. If he can buy it, he can do whatever with it since he bought it. I say we stop selling. No? Why not?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
And NO, Dusty, I WILL NOT pull your finger!
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
dusty Veteran user 352 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-10-04 21:21, Steve_Mollett wrote: ***, that's all I wanted....
Regards,
Dusty aka Max Gordon. "Always give 100%, Unless you're a blood donor!" Exclusive publications available from: www.solutions.yolasite.com |
HerbLarry Special user Poof! 731 Posts |
Quote:
Cause Magicians are people and most people are trained to be greedy and want fame.
You know why don't act naive.
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2604 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-10-07 10:49, HerbLarry wrote: lol... I think it would be more accurate to say that people who are greedy and want fame tend to become magicians.
Ray Pierce
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Ray Chelt Special user Changing the world with my 988 Posts |
You know I can sort of understand the concerns regarding exposure although I very much agree with Pakar's implied point that, whilst we want to protect our secrets, its perfectly acceptable for anyone to sell their secrets to whoever will pay. And lets face it, in our highly moral stance , its also not unheard of to make a minor tweak to somebody elses secret and then flog that to make some money . Incredible !!!
But what does concern me a lot are the periodic posts on here form older folk suggesting some sort of retribution against KIDS !!!. They are for the large part children, they are showing an interest the only way they know how. By all means teach them a different way, but, whether they listen or not, lets cut out the aggressive talk about how we are going to deal with these KIDS. |
Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-10-08 06:56, Ray Chelt wrote:
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts |
Conflating issues again
1) An item offered as "novel" which has a foundation on prior art yet proffered without citations to our literature is problematic. 2) Using "KIDS" as vehicles for the monetization of "old wine", being offered by "new cups/faces/cubs" is also problematic 3) When a "KID" gets online and defends their work by pleading ignorance, naivete or "they were told" - and then complains about being mistreated when held to account for the consequences for their participation in the dilution of value of others works or the misrepresentation of prior art... that's also problematic. Parents, it's great when your kids go out and offer magic by way of performance to audiences. But when it comes to adding to our literature or the politics of the market in magic - is there really any rush to have them face what amounts to a defense of a PhD thesis? What's new? How do you know it's new? Why do you believe it contributes to our craft as anything more than a personal variation of well known strategy/technology/scripting - IE how might it serve others and so merit a place as a thing available to others? Tough questions. And it really does take a long time to learn enough to discuss the whats and whys of such things. No rush on getting great works into print - when if they really have merit they will serve the inventor/performer for a career entertaining audiences.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Ray Chelt Special user Changing the world with my 988 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-10-08 15:32, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Yes indeed it is all problematic but not nearly so problematic as the fact these children probably naively get their modus operandi from the fact that established magicians at every level will sell out their secrets for a quick buck, and in some cases others secrets. We shouldn't be looking to hold the children accountable first when its the gr'ups who need a good talking to. |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts |
Ray, as you are well aware, children don't get online without the approval and support of adults. You need to have a contract with an ISP to get online. Same as driving a car. But what when children are lured into taking their drivers ed cars and then holding races where tickets are sold?
Quote:
On 2011-10-08 15:55, Ray Chelt wrote:... I addressed the matter to the parents. And any other adults involved in selling to/publicizing/promoting. Just another form of child abuse IMHO - whether as toxic containers, catspaws or fall guys for the venal. However, that does not in any way absolve any "children" from actively participating in the process online much less the whining and tiresome pleas we find posted. How was I supposed to know the ace assembly was a Hofzinser trick and that I was not really inventing anything new by using the Jacks? What's it to you? Mark Wilson is selling a square-circle item under a different name - so why can't I sell twisting the aces using credit cards as a new product? It gets tiresome. Parents/adults - take some responsibility for when your toxic (ignorance or worse) container spills out in public.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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RBMentalist New user 34 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-10-04 17:20, Pakar Ilusi wrote: I spent some time overseas, Azerbaijan and Jordan, where there were no other magicians to talk with. Now that I'm back I rely on my peers and the community around me but selling effects is good for those who don't have a community or don't know how to join one. |
Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-11-16 15:04, RBMentalist wrote: I meant that rhetorically and sarcastically.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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dusty Veteran user 352 Posts |
"I meant that rhetorically and sarcastically."
That's the problem with emails and forums Pakar, sarcasm and tongue in cheek comments cannot be properly conveyed. Readers then jump on these posts taking the literally. When I posted "You're probably spot on. Doesn't mean we should not send the boys round...it's hard to expose tricks with your hands in plaster....!"" I was JOKING!!!!!! I was trying to make the point that anyone who knows these kids, should try and explain that purchasing an effect does not give you the right to go on line and post a video explaining the method.
Regards,
Dusty aka Max Gordon. "Always give 100%, Unless you're a blood donor!" Exclusive publications available from: www.solutions.yolasite.com |
HerbLarry Special user Poof! 731 Posts |
Quote:
I'd like someone to explain to Magicians that if you don't want your stuff exposed stop exposing it. That you get a handful of silver doesn't change anything.
You know why don't act naive.
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