Of course it is your intent. Look at your last sentence. I mean for guys who know so much about how to use words it is *** ironic how you don't seem to see how you say things. At least punisher is trying to be condescending.

It is not about if they are in trance or not, or how you want to frame it if it exists. It is simply about what to do. So can we have 1thread that stays with the topic and not turn it into the same stupid stuff?

Actually Danny I am not trying to be condescending I am not arguing with anybody or getting into an argument here. I think James is either confused or pretentious. I am not sure which one maybe both.

Martin Does a " No Hypnosis Hypnosis Show". Ive heard he is very good would like to see him. But the title says it all. There is no argument he uses hypnosis even twice in the title.

Danny - thanks for pointing out what my intention was

MP - neither confused nor pretentious, I just have a differing opinion to you.

Once again I find this forum impossible to discuss on. I have tried to articulate a point of view but as usual am slammed by the usual suspects.

The thread is about how to deal with people not coming 'out of trance' is it not? Therefore my observations about the nature and framing of trance are valid.

Why is it so hard for people to have discussion here without dogma?

Heck, do you all just want constant agreement!

Im still trying to work out your point of view? Trance does exist. Its in the dictionary its clear what the definitions are.

There are different types of shows. You mention Martin's Ive not seen but really would like to. From what I have seen on video he does a lot of what I would call light stage hypnosis. But I haven't seen all of it. From what I have seen from most hypnotists who go down the route that there is no trance they usually once again do light stage hypnosis. Even so if you watch the videos there IS inductions involved and also trance or "configuration of cognitive faculties" whatever you want to call it - it doesn't really matter the same elements exist.

Most "tradtional style shows" as you know use "hypnotic sleep" in fact so do you I've seen your videos. Most of these shows also condition to a deeper level ( lets not argue about the word deeper ) they get a more receptive volunteer.


Sleepers happen ocasionally but in a rare instance you get someone who doesn't awaken easily. Not awaken from real sleep but from hypnotic sleep if you want to call it that.

There is no argument these things happen. Perhaps not with the lighter state or conditioned types of shows I don't know.


But that aside for a moment. "sleepers" are relatively rare but can usually be awakened easily.

Hypnotic sleep is not a metaphor its a suggestion that if followed makes the next suggestion even more effective etc. It may not be the only way to get someone to follow suggestions but is probably the best way for theatrical purposes. Plus it leads to a more animated receptive zoned out tranced out whatever you want to call it end result.

Thank you MP

Now we are getting somewhere with the discussion. I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said. My point being that 'sleep' is a suggestion therefore how you (as the hypnotist) frame the concept to the subject is also a suggestion. This in turn lends itself as a method of rousing the occasional unresponsive sleepers.

I do use the classic sleep approach MP but not always.

Thank you for entering into discourse rather than just abuse.

Incidentally MST gets full phenomena in his shows not just 'the light stuff'. There is also plenty of research (spec. Irving Kircsh) to suggest that phenomena can easily be illicited without any induction although I realise that you will probably say that there was an induction anyway

No argument, just viewpoint and observation

Tranceless hypnosis, sleepless inductions, waking hypnosis, suggestions without sleep. I've played around with it and it all interests me from an academic point of view.

It's even been quite entertaining to include some in performance on the odd occasion when I'm not booked as a hypnotist, but therein lies the problem. The general public, on the whole, has no academic interest in it, they just want to be entertained.

Most of the time, I'm known as a hypnotist and booked as a hypnotist and if I didn't give them what they're expecting from a hypnotist, they'd be disappointed.

The whole "sleep and go floppy" thing is what they want, it's what they expect. It's actually more than that. It's the model THEY hold in their heads.

Sure, I could join your crusade and re-educate them but as soon as I stop saying "I'm a hypnotist" and have to say "I'm kind of like a hypnotist but..." they get all confused and go ahead book the Hypnotist who'll give them what they want.

I know you guys in the UK (Martin included) think you're making a difference, but in this whole apparent crusade against trance, but two names stand out from the past few decades: Kreskin and Derren Brown.
From my experience, even THEY haven't made one bit of difference to the general public's perceptions about hypnosis.

Another interesting thing is, when I was in England recently, I trained people who had been trained by some of the sleepless proponents and had a very strong belief in their various models, yet when I hypnotized them, even they still "slept and went floppy" just the same as everyone else.

My concern is that when people are trained NOT to use "sleep and go floppy" and NOT how to wake them up properly, then someone they work with runs the pattern for it and goes right ahead and does it anyway (or even something close to it,) the hypnotist won't know how to deal with it.

In conclusion, when I find there are enough skeptics who can't be hypnotized by the "traditional" method for it to ruin my career OR when I'm asked enough times to do a show which doesn't include trance, I'm ready to make the switch, I really am.

But in the meantime, I'm happy hypnotizing those skeptics to prove them wrong AND giving everyone else exactly what they want.

James I believe there is phenomena then there is PHENOMENA. What I mean is the quality of the phenomena or responses I still think are much bigger when using the "sleep" model or technique or whatever. I agree with what Reg says above. I also believe just because you aren't following the norm doesn't mean there is no trance or induction. There is always an induction (a process that makes something happen)and I believe there is always trance ( a place where someone goes to respond to suggestion) both a natural everyday series of trances and an induction led trance.

Induction led is what we all do for theatrical purposes whether its with overt or covert inductions.

Another thing I have learned over the years is that people don't always respond in the way they are expected to. Even with preframing occasionally someone will be difficult to wake up or bring them out of the temporary conditioning. On the very rare occasion they might be very difficult.

I think also this "new wave" is partly marketing as in Martin's case and partly a new generation trying to make their mark by trying create something new. The reality is there really is nothing new.

I am shocked at your use of the word "suspectS". You seem to be arguing with a single person. Again words mean things. Please use the agreed upon words. You are so interested in dialogue that is the starting point.

I am being serious here. You KNOW if trance exists is a hot button issue yet you raise it not expecting a reaction. You claim to not want to argue but you start there. Certainly you can see where one might think your intent was to argue?

None of this is a slam, but I am trying to show you maybe there are problems in your being able to communicate. I hope it is taken as such.

I thought Mr. Taylors approach was a strategy for getting around part of the 1952 hypnotism act, so he could do shows involving minors in schools?

You've made that sound rather insidious Owen. I hope it wasn't intentional.

Here's the thing james you can get phenomena anytime you want. Visualize the pink panther sitting on your keyboard you have an hallucination. Forget someone you know very well's name you have amnesia. When your looking for somewthing can't find it and its staring you in the face you have a negative hallucination etc. These things are happening all the time everyday. Our perceptions are being shaped and molded by our environment and our past etc. Phenomena is just an everyday occurance.

Ive heard these arguments so much I think its about time you guys actually listened. Was not long ago there was an argument about being able to get amnesia without a formal induction. But then when you compare making someone confused and forgetting their name for a few seconds alongside having someone completely wipe out two hours on stage doing rediculous things out of character and in some cases they never get back any of the memory--- then its quite clear what the differences are unless you are an idiot.


I agree with Danny's post. I also think there is a place and a use for both approaches. Again go over the drefinitions of trance I posted especially numbers 2 & 3. Tell me they don't exist.

Its not opinion its fact.

I have hreard from someone who has met Martin and saw his show that it is very similar to a traditional show in terms of structure and procedures. he told me that even Martin has no clue as to what is going on and couldn't say if there is no hypnosis. The point of it being framed that way is to acceptable to a certain market. Which I believe it is perfect for.

But if he does use hand clasps or tests then he is using inductions etc.

I thought the strategy was rather clever, and I only typed the text, you made it sound !

Without arriving at either a positive or a negative conclusion regarding Mr. Taylors motives, strategies, or anything to do with his character, I think the idea is genius.

I've heard about this story since it first hit the airwaves and now every morning DJ team is covering it -- all for laughs. Personally, I have three thoughts to share:
1)I wouldn't give Mr. Whitbread any credit for being a trainer based upon this story and his quoted statements;
2) The school administrator should be shot (okay, fired) for saying that he didn't research the young man's credentials;and finally,
3) Both this young man and Mr. Whitbread have now had more than their 15 mins. We should put this to rest and hope the story dies a very quick and silent death.

P.S., Mr. Whitbread's old Myspace account shows him performing Full body catalepsy. Considering that he taught his "protege" to do this should also qualify him for my thought # 2 above.

Be good to each other!

I've heard about this story since it first hit the airwaves and now every morning DJ team is covering it -- all for laughs. Personally, I have three thoughts to share:
1)I wouldn't give Mr. Whitbread any credit for being a trainer based upon this story and his quoted statements;
2) The school administrator should be shot (okay, fired) for saying that he didn't research the young man's credentials;and finally,
3) Both this young man and Mr. Whitbread have now had more than their 15 mins. We should put this to rest and hope the story dies a very quick and silent death.

P.S., Mr. Whitbread's old Myspace account shows him performing Full body catalepsy. Considering that he taught his "protege" to do this should also qualify him for my thought # 2 above.

Be good to each other!

I've seen two episodes of a hard to rouse participant.

I was sitting in on a show at the Sahara Casino a few years ago. I can't remember the stage hypnotist, but it was an adult themed show. I was seated next to two female teachers from Texas who were in Vegas for the weekend.

One of the teachers got "volunteered" by her friend and went up on stage. She went under quickly and initially appeared to be a good subject... however during a deepening portion, she basically sprawled out in her chair and the hypnotist was unable to rouse her.

I watched, pretty amused by the situation. The hypnotist had two assistants come up and then drag her in her chair off stage. He dismissed the incident saying that sometimes people go especially deep into trance and that while he could have brought her out, our (the audience's) time was valuable and that he would continue the show, letting her awaken at the end of the show or she'd do it on her own.

The other teacher was concerned about her friend (especially since she had volunteered her) and didn't enjoy any of the show. Personally, I thought the hypnotist wasn't a very good entertainer and that the young teacher actually was the only thing that happened that seemed remotely interesting to me.



The other time was watching a renfest hypnotist.

A young boy in the audience kept on falling into trance, apparently wanting the attention. This was obvious because the boy would still follow suggestions to raise his arm, etc.

At the father's urgings, the hypnotist came over and woke the boy up with some difficulty. As soon as the hypnotist turned away, the boy again went out. The hypnotist returned, again woke the boy, still having a hard time doing so.

This was all still early in the show, so the crowd hadn't warmed up yet. We sat there quietly and I imagine the hypnotist was starting to sweat. For the third time, he turned around and took three steps. He whipped around to see that the boy had already sunk back into trance/slumber/play acting/whatever. The hypnotist's fast "gotcha!" turnaround was hilarious and made the audience laugh. At that point, the hypnotist, to his credit, took things in stride and engaged in a little routine with the boy, making it seem like he was going in and out of trance every couple of seconds. It was humorous and gave the child the attention he was seeking. Afterwards, he said that perhaps the boy was a little too tired and that it would be best if the father took him away. I think the hypnotist did a wonderful job there.

Let's face it, anyone can do stage hypnosis badly.
People are complaining at the number of bad entertainers attempting stage hypnotism. As long as hypnotism is popular, you're going to have people trying to make money off it. If it is really bad, then call it something else and trademark your term. Only allow people who meet your qualifications to use that term.

Just because someone in the audience follows along with the suggestion and responds, does not necessarily mean they are wanting attention.

If the boy was merely following suggestions then he would have woken up after the first time the hypnotist roused him and wouldn't have repeatedly fallen back into trance without any prompting.

It was pretty obvious the boy was seeking attention.