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Devious Inner circle 2120 Posts |
Jeff McBride talked about this book tonight at the 15 minute mark HERE.
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Sean Mitchell New user 12 Posts |
Aussiemagic, you're correct. The information in the book is drawn from an enormous number of different sources; my own professional experience, the experiences of dozens of professional performers I've met and befriended, dozens of books on the business of magic, dozens of books on business in general (including marketing, publicity, networking, etc), and hundreds of articles on these topics. I definitely didn't come up with all of these ideas in isolation, nor have I claimed to, and I hope that's made clear in the book itself.
To the early purchasers of the book so far: thanks very much for taking a chance on a new author in the magic community. Although I'll be doing a few things to spread the word about the book in the near future, at this point it's still a little under-the-radar, so I really appreciate you all being part of the first wave of readers. Devious, thanks for posting that link; I wasn't sure if Mr. McBride had even received the book yet. It sounds like he has just started reviewing it, but I hope he likes the rest of the book enough to recommend it (although he's obviously beyond the point where he would personally need any of the advice). If anyone happens to see the book mentioned in other media, please let me know, I'd love to hear about it. Sean |
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aussiemagic Special user 937 Posts |
All those ideas that you took from other books and people should be referenced, otherwise it is just plagiarism, isn't it? It is not made clear that you have taken those ideas from other books because from what I have seen, no other sources are referenced. You need to put references to the sources where you got those ideas otherwise you are taking someone elsefs work or ideas and passing them off as your own. Not to mention making money from it as well. I am not going to say anything more on this topic other than I think you have just gone to your bookshelf cut and pasted other people's ideas into a book that you are now selling as your own.
How to become a professional magician:
Click here |
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Sean Mitchell New user 12 Posts |
Unfortunately, it looks like I'll need to spend a few moments publicly addressing this nonsense, on the off-chance that anyone actually believes it.
Aussiemagic, I'll quote you directly on the two accusations you've made. Quote:
You need to put references to the sources where you got those ideas otherwise you are taking someone elsefs work or ideas and passing them off as your own. I'm sure everyone here has read books, essays, and other resources on the business of magic, such as Kirk Charles' “Manual of Restaurant Magic”, or Michael Ammar's essay (and now audio product) “Negotiating Higher Performance Fees”. When these authors present their ideas, they don't directly reference where those ideas came from, despite the fact that Mr. Charles didn't invent many of the basic principles of restaurant magic that he writes about, and Mr. Ammar didn't invent the basic principles of negotiation that he discusses. This is because these authors have combined the many ideas they've been exposed to over the years and synthesized these ideas with their own personal experimentation, trial-and-error, thoughtfulness, and real-world experience, and then presented this new synthesis to the public. It's almost always impossible to accurately trace the history of these many small ideas, which is why no book on the business of magic has ever done so. I've literally never read a magician's business book that lists references in the way you suggest, and I have no idea why you've applied this double standard to my book. Quote:
I think you have just gone to your bookshelf cut and pasted other people's ideas into a book that you are now selling as your own. That's a very serious accusation. I'm sure you wouldn't make it if you didn't have specific examples, in which case you should post them publicly. Just be sure that you can cite the specific works that you think I've plagiarized, including page numbers and quotations of the relevant passages - that's what it would take to establish plagiarism. The irony, of course, is that after accusing me of sloppy referencing, you haven't referenced which authors you think I've plagiarized. Quote:
I am not going to say anything more on this topic... You've publicly accused me of being a plagiarist and thief. If the clumsy half-dozen sentences you've contributed to this discussion so far are the best you can do, then I certainly hope you keep your promise and stop wasting everyone's time. To everyone else involved in this discussion: Thanks for your patience. It pains me to see that, at this point, I've had to devote more time to Aussiemagic's nonsense than to all the normal people in this thread. I'll correct this oversight if I can – if anyone has questions or comments they'd like to voice, please feel free to do so. Thanks everyone. Sean |
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Michael Messing Inner circle Knoxville, TN 1817 Posts |
Sean,
I'm sorry to see an open accusation like this without any specifics. I echo your response. On the positive side, I was very impressed with your book. I have been making my primary income as a performer for more than 25 years and I wish this book had been available when I started! There is an incredible amount of information in this book. As I posted in my review on Amazon.com, I know of no other single book that covers becoming a pro to this level. It covers everything from selection of material for close-up, stage and strolling performances and structuring your shows to business and marketing. Needless to say, I think it's a great book for someone wanting to know everything about being a pro. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Well lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
While putting in references is laborious and time consuming it is still the right thing to do. Just because others don't do it in no way makes it right. Now conversely it does not make you a thief or plagiarist. That is a harsh accusation and something to be avoided. I don't think that is right. I don't think Devious would bring forth a book with high recommendationsthat was cut and pasted from other books. So lets drop the heat a bit if we can. I understand the position of each side. But lets not tarnish yet another thread that many new people can find useful with a dumb flame war that will chase them off.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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aussiemagic Special user 937 Posts |
This is my LAST post on this topic.
I am sure that Mr. Mitchell has lots of real world experience and has a lot of great information to offer based on his own experience. It is my opinion though that ideas that are not his own should have been referenced in this book. Mr. Mitchell openly acknowledges that he relied on a lot of sources in writing of this book but I did not see any references to such sources. By including footnotes to those sources it is helpful for those readers who want to look into those works and it is a way of acknowledging the person who had that idea. That is my only criticism of the book and I am disappointed to see that Mr. Mitchell thinks it is "nonsense".
How to become a professional magician:
Click here |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Aussiemagic - please share with us a more specific complaint so that we better understand your point. Mr. Mitchell challanged you to do so and then went on to explain in pretty clear terms why this would not be practical to do and supported his point by including the names of others who likewise do not do what you are asking him to do. I can certaintly imagine that he may not recall the origin of every point in his book. I imagine most readers do not want to incure additional costs associated with him producing what you are asking him to produce.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Well now wait.
Almost all books have such research involved in them. Do we simply say it is too hard and too expensive to do such a thing. I am curious as to your position.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-10-28 14:43, Dannydoyle wrote: I have not read the book, so I am not sure what it contained that required that he refrence. Mr. Mitchell asked Aussiemagic to provide specific information that he believed was improperly written without giving credit and Aussiemagic did not provide clarification. My only point is that not all information is necessary to refrence the origin and can be time consuming and costly. For example, if I wrote a book and in the book I spoke of a round world, I would not know who to credit (Columbus?)for that discovery and would need to expend time to research the point. I am sure most readers would not want to be provided my refrence to this "claim", while incuring the additional costs for my research into each and every point dicussed in my book. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Most marketing concepts don't date back 600 or so years now do they?
I am just saying that it being too time consuming and too costly is not really a valid position. In writing, yes it is necessary to reference where ideas come from. Otherwise why coppyright? I am only speaking to the law and what is common. I don't know what was done or not done. I know Devious is a good guy so that goes a LONG way with me!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-10-28 18:15, Dannydoyle wrote: I feel the same way about Devious! |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Plus if the guy doesn't claim originality, why are we really bashing him?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts |
The real difficulty in trying to satisfy aussimagic and his purported indignities and "concerns" is that, upon closer examination, by their very nature, the "concerns" are sophist and specious. Lots of the material amassed by Sean Mitchell are common sense things that will have come to (and from) many pros (magicians or otherwise) over time, and, over time the same points will have been realized (and utilized) by each of them as they discovered and found value for himself/herself. Most are common sense points that are discovered (and shared) by each pro as he embarks and engages upon his professional career. To be able to ascertain which pro first determined each point in the Mitchell compendium is both unnecessary and impossible to achieve.
We are not talking here about unique items of discovery such as who first discovered the relationship between time and space or who posited or discovered string theory. We are not even discussing theories or first principles of magic or original magic effects (such as Paul Curry's "Out of this World", or who first discovered or used a thumb tip or who first discovered or used a double lift). Sean's material is much more generic and universal than that. Sean's book is more like a compendium of common sense ideas and tips that most successful performing pros have discovered on their own and which Sean has amassed and compiled in one easy convenient location for the person just starting out in (or considering) a career in magic or any other performance field or discipline. While I have not read Sean's book, a brief look at the table of contents of the book (See: http://www.amazon.com/How-Become-Profess......78307633 ) reveals that the material provided by Sean is truly generic and based upon common sense and are the types of things that a successful working pro in any performance field would individually "discover" on his own over time. The sheer "generic-ness" (new word?) of the advice is obvious and Sean's book could have equally been aimed at other performing arts disciplines if entitled "How to Become a Professional Vaudeville Performer: A Practical Guidebook for Making the Transition from Amateur to Professional", or, "How to Become a Professional Bird Act Performer: A Practical Guidebook for Making the Transition from Amateur to Professional", etc. As such, there is no need to castigate Sean for purported violations of literary and professional writing standards that are inapplicable and/or non-existent in relationship to the type of book he has compiled. All the foregoing is just IMHO; your mileage may vary...and probably does. Best regards to all. Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
I haven't seen the book, but if it teaches common sense, I highly recommend it.
They say 'common sense is seeing things as they are, and doing things as they should be done.' We all could use more of that. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I actually have a copy of the book. It is a HUGE volume, absolutely huge.
Table of contents is an education in and of itself. I know what you mean by "generic" and the term applies and it doesn't. I haven't gotten through all 500 or what not pages, but it is VERY good information. Perhaps it might not be for the performer who has been at it for 10 years or so. This has been admitted by Sean himself so no problem. I will definately come back and "review" the book.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Sean Mitchell New user 12 Posts |
Glad to see that there's been some discussion going on, and that's it's been thoughtful and reasonable; thanks very much to Michael Messing, Charliecheckers, and Turk for defending my integrity, and to Dannydoyle for being open-minded.
In case anyone would like a little extra clarification on referencing in this context: If there were any ideas in the book that could be traced back to a single author or performer, I would absolutely reference their work. However, when it comes to business advice, this type of referencing is typically impossible. We know that the first magician to publish a version of the Torn and Restored Newspaper was Hugall Benedict in Stanyon's Magic in 1903. We do not (as far as I'm aware) know who the first magician was to put up a website or hand out his business card during an effect. This is why no book on the business of magic even attempts to include this type of referencing, including books by widely-known and widely-respected magicians like Michael Ammar, Richard Osterlind, Eugene Burger, etc. This isn't a matter of work ethic; if it was, these gentlemen would certainly be up to the task. It's just the nature of the ideas being discussed. I think everyone already understands this distinction, so I'll leave it at that. At the very least, I think it's clear that the referencing in my book is the same as the referencing in pretty much every other magic business book currently on the market (including works by the most respected names in our field). Concerning the actual contents of the book: Turk was nice enough to assume that the book might be useful for other types of professional performers besides magicians. I certainly hope this is true, but I'd like to mention that I can't guarantee it - the book is targeted primarily at magicians, and is written from my personal experience as a magician, so frankly I have no idea if other performers would benefit from it. There are some topics discussed in the book that are widely applicable (such as how to work with contracts and deposits), and some topics that will probably only be of use to magicians (such as how to approach people at strolling gigs). If anyone happens to have experience in other variety arts (hypnosis, juggling, sideshow, etc), I'd be very curious to hear whether or not anything in the book seems useful in relation to those areas. Sean |
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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts |
A review from Danny Doyle would be highly welcome. I trust Danny's thinking!
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rockmartian New user 82 Posts |
Added to cart! The table of contents sold me alone.
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