Oh my, card guy in the coin forum...a little scary!

Anyway, I'm typically a small packet card guy (can bust out a whole deck for longer performances), but a recent Joshua Jay lecture over at DC's IBM Ring 50 made me think I could possible work in some coin stuff. I've tried many times and failed to develop even the basic sleights for coin magic, but Joshua Jay's Three-coin Vanish (from his Sleight of Hand and a Twist of Fate booklet) really impressed me and only has one true vanish (uses a sh*** and a fl***** for the first two coins). I've been practicing that move for a while and feel confident that once I get used to the timing in front of people, I'll be able to pull it off....we shall see...

ANYWAY, the point of this thread is to ask about the gaff coins. My parents were nice enough to buy the sh*** and a fl***** from Joshua's website (marketed as "the ones he uses"), but I'm new to these gaffs and I have a couple questions:

First off, I notice the sh*** doesn't come all the way down over the fl***** coin's edge, so holding the coin on edge shows the gaff. Also, when viewing the two gaff coins together from the rear (it's a heads sh***), it seems like the outline is visible. I could see it from several feet away in a mirror. Similarly, the supposedly flush seam on the fl***** was also visible, though I guess I can cover that with my thumb if showing the back.

Second, the two coins talk when nested. I'm not very adept at handling these gaffs, so maybe this is something one just has to deal with, but if I have to show the 2.5 coins as one (especially from the rear), I'm worried about a fake-looking coin.

These are Tango coins, btw, not the "pro" ones, just the regular ones, as far as I can tell.

Soooo, my long set of questions/concerns finished....thoughts??

Edit: Oh and I looked around and didn't see any thread about this trick, but there MUST be some, so feel free to link to those!

A shell doesn’t fully cover anything it is nested with, nor should it. Two reasons: 1) it would be difficult to unnest the pair as the shell would have to travel straight up for a good ways, and 2) it would make the view from the back side more pronounced since the shell's rim would almost protrude over the insert. Regarding what you say about the view from the rear of what you have now, don’t you think you might be gazing a little too hard with magicians' eyes? After all, does your routine call for you to show the nested gimmick from the read for an extended view? And for that matter, who is going to get down at the level of the edge of the nested gimmick and look at the thickness intensely?

Unless your shell is defective in some way it should be fine. If you fear it might be then post a few photos of it for us.

I presently have expanded shells from Tango, Johnson, Schoolcraft, and Swadling. All cover roughly ½ of the insert coin and no one has seen anything out of line.

Jim

Wow jim my shells cover 90 percent of the coin.

I have a Johnson Ike set and the Shell covers around 90% of the coin.

I have a few shell sets but don't use them much but they are all very nice, and make for some deceptive magic.

Most sh*lls cover pretty well but J-Mac tells you correctly enough as to this stuff. Eagle, you can see the line mostly because you know it's there and you're trying to see it. Specs are not aware of this and so don't look for it. Also, typically they do not have a clue as to sh*lls and so whatever coin they see they just see the coin as one coin, at 75% or 90% coverage, it really doesn't matter much at all. Magicians can obsess about such things but they mean nothing to laymen. As to any little sound, yes, better touch and feel will deaden it, and the use of a carefully put heightening of your voice usually covers any little sound.

This trick sounds like something Eric Jones does, but whatever it is fairly easy enough with the set you have, especially if it's also magnetic - piece a cake and yes a nice little coin routine for card guys for sure.

If you like this sort of coin magic, look into things like Scotch & Soda, Hopping Halves, a C/S coin effect are all fairly easy to do with little effort beyond learning the routine of it. And keep working at the SOH basics as well, it comes eventually as it's all just good practice. I used to do the same thing with your genre of cards, useta just practice NFW over and over until I could do it in my sleep, still can - Great packet card trick for a coin guy or anybody really.

Good luck and have fun with it all.

-Mb

Wow - I haven't actually measured the thickness of any of my shells but I estimated by just looking briefly at them. I can say that none are near 90%; not even close with the possible exception of the middle shell of my 3CM and a Johnson English Penny shell. I have two Tango shells that I don’t believe even cover half the coin thickness.

Jim

Thanks Mb (and everybody else too!). Agreed about this being my NFW (which I coincidentally just started doing with some microbiology-themed patter ). I always thought coin magic was beautiful and much more repeatable than card magic (I could watch coins float around all day!), but never had the SOH for it. Maybe handling these large gaff coins will help me develop some comfort with the props.

The shell not covering the whole flipper doesn't bother me a LOT (as it does fit fairly snugly in the X and Y plane of the coin), but I think the big thing for me is the talking between the shell and the flipper. There seems to be quite a lot of arc on the face of the flipper from Kennedy's face, so the shell levers over quite a bit to either side. I'm trying to do a lot of the moves from my memory of the Joshua Jay lecture (may have to break down and buy the booklet at some point...a grad student so I make as few purchases as possible), so maybe I'm just not holding the combined shell/flipper correctly/naturally. I'll look into the pitching of the voice, though I was hoping to do the routine with a minimum of talking.

Btw, is there a good place to learn the fundimental moves with these gaffs? I feel like even my vocabulary is lacking and I'm sure there must be a set of standard ways to, for instance, open the flipper. Also, I gather that these two gaffs are used a great many routines, but so far I haven't actually look at very many.

Oh and I do have a Scotch and Soda, from my childhood magic days...maybe I'll do something with it if I can find something more interesting than a trick that "demonstrates the gimmick." It's a pain to reset though :/

I don’t even use any of my flippers anymore. When I do ring in a gaffed coin it is usually a shell or a copper/silver coin. And of course my favorites: the CSB sets! No noise issues - for shells put a layer of Teflon inside the shell. And no moving/mechanical parts to suddenly come apart and embarrass everyone!

Thanks!

Jim

And as to your old Scotch & Soda, they've made magnetic versions for years now, much easier to reset than the old bang ring. You might even look into the TUC by Tango, you can do a lot of stuff (Think you even get a nice DVD of effects too) with it and it's not hard to use. But if you want absolute simplicity as to gaff coins, again I say get yourself a C/S coin, there's plenty of good magic in this old thing to do or create yourself. I've done both.

Also as to my mention of Eric Jones, I believe it's his "Oxy Clean Coin Routine" where he uses a set like this as you describe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gvQR......ndscreen

*These probably don't make much sound
http://coingaffs.com/coingaff_shop/oxf.html

-Mb

How can anyone not fall in love with Joshua Jay's trick? Expanded shells will never cover an entire coin based on how they're made. Non-expanded shells, however, can fit over everything. Have you considered using a non-expanded shell and a shaved down coin to fit? All gaffed coin makers supply these.

I have a non-expanded shell set of Silver Eagles. Again this is 90 - 95% coverage. Non-expanded sets suffer from the same small flaw as the expanded shell. Even placing the shelled coin in the spec's hand like the ending of Larry Jennning's 'Above, below or beside' goes unnoticed because the coins are viewed from above not from the side.

Wow .. How nice .. ...

Not bad.....

Hey Loyal Eagle, Just something to ponder. When I do coin work it's usually I'm standing and don't care if they are seated or standing, doesn't matter. So when I use my gaffs, like a shell, they are usually looking down at it from the top so there isn't anything to see from the sides...Usually I try to do my first coin trick with no gimmicked coins so I can hand them out let them examine them so when I do a card effect then switch over to a gimmicked coin trick there is no handing out the coins just the routine and so far haven't ever had any problems.
It must be the mixing in of a coin effect then a card trick, could even be a packet trick, then going to the killer effect using a shell or other gimmick is very entertaining and has enough of a variety to keep them entertained.
Bill

Hey Loyal Eagle, Just something to ponder. When I do coin work it's usually I'm standing and don't care if they are seated or standing, doesn't matter. So when I use my gaffs, like a shell, they are usually looking down at it from the top so there isn't anything to see from the sides...Usually I try to do my first coin trick with no gimmicked coins so I can hand them out let them examine them so when I do a card effect then switch over to a gimmicked coin trick there is no handing out the coins just the routine and so far haven't ever had any problems.
It must be the mixing in of a coin effect then a card trick, could even be a packet trick, then going to the killer effect using a shell or other gimmick is very entertaining and has enough of a variety to keep them entertained.
Bill

Hey Loyal Eagle, Just something to ponder. When I do coin work it's usually I'm standing and don't care if they are seated or standing, doesn't matter. So when I use my gaffs, like a shell, they are usually looking down at it from the top so there isn't anything to see from the sides...Usually I try to do my first coin trick with no gimmicked coins so I can hand them out let them examine them so when I do a card effect then switch over to a gimmicked coin trick there is no handing out the coins just the routine and so far haven't ever had any problems.
It must be the mixing in of a coin effect then a card trick, could even be a packet trick, then going to the killer effect using a shell or other gimmick is very entertaining and has enough of a variety to keep them entertained.
Bill

Loyaleagle,
I agree with Marion and J-Mac that it's not important to have the shell covering entirely the side of the coin. It's a well known "Gestalt" principle that spectators do see the face of the coin and do not have any perception of the edge (unless the performer feels so guilty that he subconsciously tips them off).

Now it is not right to claim that there is no shell covering the entire edge and not betraying the presence of the shell on the other side. Jamie Schoolcraft in the US and Xavier Belmont in France both have shells covering the entire edge, and I'd be very surprised if Lassen (that I'm at odds with) didn't sell this type of shells.

The noise in a shell (that can be partly tamed by using thin shim material) is much more a secondary issue than the covering of the edge. As Marion suggested Tango's TUC is a possible answer to your (more psychological than factual) problem