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DonDriver Inner circle 1790 Posts |
Hi Guys,
Sorry but I still haven't gotten to my next tape "Building a Tip". The weather has just gotten good here (even though it snowed yesterday), so I hope to get at that project as soon as I find a place to tape. I'll be sure to let you all know. Thanks. Have a Good One, Don |
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ThorstenHappel Loyal user Düsseldorf / New York, NY 203 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-04-12 12:13, wmhegbli wrote: Just a side note: this term is used in German, too. "Flohmarkt" (= flea market) - and they are very popular. If I am not mistaken, the French use it, too. "marché aux puces" Sorry for getting a little sidetracked. Back to Svengali pitching.
Thorsten
----------------------------------------- "If this be magic, let it be an art ..." -- William Shakespeare, The Winter's Tale, Act 5, Scene 3 |
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DonDriver Inner circle 1790 Posts |
Hey Guys,
How is the Svengali pitch going for the guys that got my video? Lets hear from some of you. And for anybody that might want to get a copy,just stop my my web site:www.dondriver.tk Hope to hear from you all soon. Have a GREAT Day, Don |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
I just ordered much of the Svengali stuff available...here is my review...
Don Driver's Svengali Pitch Tape...the best of the bunch, this is real world application, complete with the sources for what you need. A very direct, to the point pitch. I used to use Expert at the Pitch Table pitch from David Walker, but will now use this. Expert at the Pitch Table...most expensive, at 50 bucks, but worth every penny. Get this with Don Driver's tape and you will have a complete education on how to pitch the Svengali and make money. If you can just get one, get Don Driver's...it pains me to say that, as David Walker's pitch made me much money, but is true. As soon as you can, get Expert at the Pitch Table next...it will pay for itself. Don Drake How to Make Money With a Svengali Deck...it was OK, but obviously dated, I could have easily got along without it, but I don't feel ripped off either. Mark Lewis Long and Short of It...you can see this pitch at his web site. It is actually a very good pitch if you are saying this is what you saw a pitchman do once. But while it is quite good for performance, I don't think it would sell decks nearly as well as Don Driver or David Walker. It looks too good, and I am not sure the punter would believe he could do the tricks. Mr. Lewis confirmed promptly and shipped rapidly. Doc Wayne's Ultimate Svengali Pitch with cassette tape of Pitch...too much tricky babble, detracts from the pitch. I can't imagine anyone using this, especially after hearing the tape. It is more confusing than entertaining. So, to summarize, since this is supposed to be about Don Driver's tape and I got sidetracked...this tape is one I really, really, wish I had the only copy of. Watch this, practice it and you will make money. My only hope is everyone will watch this and just dream, and I'll have it all to myself... If you are looking for a fancy collectible, forget it...if you want to make money with magic this is as close to a sure thing as you are going to get. Totally, unreservedly recommended. |
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raymond New user 41 Posts |
All the pitches above except one are based on the David Walker method of working the cards. Don Driver has recognised present day realities that you just cannot do 12 minute demos and expect people to hang about that long.
He has cut out the larceny trick (which some people regard as the strongest part of the pitch)and kept in the false explanation. I do know a magic dealer who used this false expalnation in a theme park but although it worked well he didn't feel too comfortable with it because after all it is a downright lie to say the cards are "magnetic" when they aren't. I wouldn't discount the Mark Lewis method so quickly.He has sold thousand of decks over 40 years in 5 different countries or so I am told. He is merely using the British method of pitching that was first brought into the UK by Joe Stuthard and developed by Ron Macmillan of International Magic. I learned to do it the same way and I can assure you that it works very effectively and I believe takes far more money. Certainly it is a spectactular demo but that is why it can get $10 without any trouble whereas with the American Driver/Walker method you are only going to get $5. Nobody is going to pay $10 for such a simple display of about 3 tricks with a false explanation. Perhaps I am wrong. I have no idea how much money the American method takes. I have heard all sorts of stories but I would have to see it with my own eyes. You just cannot tell from one demo on an edited tape. On the Walker tape he did a long dem and I think only sold one. If he had sold more the camera would not have cut away. On the Driver tape he sold 7. However it must be remembered that one of the 7 was a shill (what we Brits call a "rick") so we are now down to 6 sales. However one of those 6 was what we call a "roll up". Americans call it a "roll back". This is someone who saw the demo before but decides to buy it now. So we are now down to 5 sales.Actually if I wanted to be picky it was only 4 sales since one kid bought two decks. At a very low price of $5? It must also be remembered that we didn't see on the tape all the other pitches that he did that day. I suspect only a good one was allowed on the tape. It is hard to quantify of course but I have often sold about 3 or 4 decks at $10 in the same amount of time. Same money approximately. But of course less stock to pay for. Sometimes I have sold 15 in a pitch and sometimes I have sold zilch. I expect Don and Dave Walker have done the same. The difference is that I sell them at twice the price. I did watch an American pitchman once. He was only a kid and did the Walker pitch word for word. After 20 minutes he sold one. I would have liked to have seen his boss work. He was trained by Walker himself and was renowned to be one of the best in the business. However I did find out by various devious means how many they sold that day. It was pretty late in the day and the mall was busy. It was the height of the Xmas season and they had only sold about 5 dozen.This is a fairly moderate amount at Xmas. At the same time in a different part of the same city I was working the cards in a department store and was going through about a hundred to a hundred and fifty decks a day. I do remember selling 16 dozen one day. I can't figure out right now how many that is. I'll let you readers work it out. I am too tired. It's a lot though. I am not saying I know which way is best. I truly don't unless I get a chance to study Don or Dave do it over a whole day. I am simply saying to Moto that he shouldn't make assumptions so quickly about the UK method (Mark Lewis) It has worked for decades. I think it is fair to say that it was the foundation of Ron Macmillan's business (International Magic) today. Having said all that the book won't tell you anything about how to pitch the cards. I might do that though here. I shall have to see what mood I am in. |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
Thanks for the observations on my review...a few thoughts.
Don Driver has cut the larceny trick but deals with it in two other ways...plus he has a very nice way to give something away free. I admit to missing the larceny trick, I enjoyed it and sold many, many decks with it. But I have to be willing to learn, and the way Don handles this is better. It is true that the Mark Lewis pitch is the only one on that list that isn't Dave Walker based (except for Docc Wayne's babbling waste of money). Many years ago I had a Martin Lewis published book/cassette combo titled "The Art of the Grafter" (don't remember author) which had a very similar pitch to Mark Lewis's for the Svengali. Perhaps Ron Macmillan influenced the approach of british pitch men, as Dave Walker has with US pitchmen. The Lewis pitch is a very, very good magic routine, and a similar pitch in "The Art of the Grafter" did bring in quite a bit of money for one of the few British people I know. Nonetheless, I stand by my recommendation of Don Driver's Pitch tape as the best buy for two reasons. 1 The Lewis routine does too much, and is too involved to make people think they can do the tricks easily. Clearly, it does sell decks, but I suspect that it scares some away because they don't think they can do the tricks right out of the box. To me, simpler sells better, though I agree this could just be a matter of style. 2 The Lewis book doesn't go into how to actually sell the deck. As such, it may not be accurate to review it along other pitches that are designed to make money. As sold, it is a very good magic routine and would probably sell decks, but to make the most money selling decks, you definitely need more practical business advice. To be clear, I really did like the Lewis book, I just think if you want to make money with Svengali, the Don Driver pitch video will serve you better. |
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raymond New user 41 Posts |
Thank you Mota for your reply.
The author you are referring to was either Walt Lees or Val Andrews. I wish I could remember who wrote "The Art of the Grafter" Actually Walt Lees put out a tape as well through Martin Breese. (not Martin Lewis) Both men had some experience with the deck and did it for some time as employees of Ron Macmillan (Val Andrews went out on his own to a limited extent)but were not REAL grafters. I cannot define a real Svengali grafter. You will know one when you see one. I am not sure if you are from the UK or not but there is only one left there. His name is Derek Ward and he sells the deck for 10 pounds. He learned the pitch from Mark Lewis about 30 years ago. I agree that the Driver tape will earn you more money than the Lewis book. This is because as you rightly point out the Lewis book will not give you one iota of info on how to sell the decks. This is quite deliberate. I believe he does not want people to sell Svengali decks. It is a business decision pure and simple. He is generous with information but not about this particular business. Can you blame him? However if he ever did open up you would be getting dynamite information that would far surpass any of the American methods and take in far more money. First let me take your criticisms one by one. You have only seen the Lewis demonstration on a videoclip and not before live people. Some of the fancy moves are eliminated except on rare occasions. The spread is ALWAYS included on the grounds that any demonstration that doesn't include it is pretty pathetic. A couple of the tricks on the video are eliminated so as to fit in other parts of the demo which you have not seen. A couple of other slum items are pitched in order to up the price to $10. $5 is the road to penury and will only work if you are paying low rent or have something more powerful such as the squirmle to sell. There IS an explanation to convince the customer that they can do the trick. It does not give away the secret of the short card (the magician in me hates the exposure) and the outright lie of the "magnetic card" Instead the punter tries the cards in his own hands doing a couple of tricks. Certainly to say that the routine is skilful looking and will frighten people away is a valid criticism I have heard for decades. However the sales I have made using the Lewis method do not bear this out. I remember once selling 478 decks in one day working from 10am to 5pm in a department store.I wasn't selling them for a low price either. The fancyness of the routine didn't seem to put those 478 people off getting their money out. Ron Macmillan was just as fancy as I am and sold trillions of the decks (slight exaggeration, I suppose!) He would only work for about two hours then get fed up and go to the pub but in that two hours he would take unbelievable money. I still don't know how he did it. I do know that it wasn't by doing a simple routine though. I remember when I first saw a Svengali pitchman doing a very fancy and spectacular routine. I wasn't doing magic at the time. I wanted to buy the deck because I was inspired and fascinated with all the fancy moves. I think this is why people will get the money out for a difficult looking routine. They want to be as good as the pitchman. It is a challenge for them. Joe Stuthard came from the "fancy" school. He did not do the false explanation or the larceny trick even though he was from North America. He invented many of the moves in the Lewis routine including the spread. He made a fortune in Australia selling the decks.There must be a reason for it. He was the influence behind Ron Macmillan who was the influence behind Mark Lewis who is not going to be the influence around anyone in the future in the ineterests of self preservation. Or so I have been led to believe. I was highly dubious and yes, envious when I heard a grafter tell me that he had seen Stuthard sell 40 decks in one pitch. I said "40? I don't believe you. And how do you know it was exactly 40? He replied "it was "bang on" (heavy with spenders) It was Xmas. I know he sold 40 because I counted them" I still don't know how much credence there is in the story but it was clear that he sold a great many. Yet he did things the way I do them. With all the fancy moves. He did "too much" he did an "involved" routine. He made money though. It works. And so does the Lewis/Macmillan/Ward/Cronin/Neptune method. The British way is always best, old chap. |
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RonCalhoun Special user Independence, KY USA 599 Posts |
Don, I got your tape about 6 weeks ago. I ordered a gross of the Svengali decks and made over 500 of the "kickers".
I'm only working this on weekends and than only a few hours at a time. I've sold over 7 dz decks. Which means after expences I'm making between 20 to 30 bucks an hour, and remember I'm only doing maybe 2 1/2 hours once or twice a weekend. Thanks for the tape and for your advice.
Founder Heroin Doesn't Care. Find us on https://www.facebook.com/heroindoesntcare
www.heroindoesntcare.com |
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RonCalhoun Special user Independence, KY USA 599 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-09-29 17:22, raymond wrote: Raymond you sure type a lot. 859 words, WOW. The above is ALL I needed to know. It's all my wife, 3 kids and the guy at the bank care about too. Show me da money. You also said... Quote:
However if he (Lewis)ever did open up... Raymond, ya know "IF" is a mighty big word. But it don't pay my bills. Don Driver's Pitch Tape is making me money, period. Ron Calhoun
Founder Heroin Doesn't Care. Find us on https://www.facebook.com/heroindoesntcare
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Mr Grey New user 28 Posts |
Actually he does open up quite a bit on the Danny Hustle site about this type of work. I will post an extract. I warn that it is a very long post
....................................................... With regard to this gaze business I recently came across an odd thing when pitching Svengali decks. For those of you that have studied the Dave Walker method of pitching as outlined in "Expert at the Pitch Table" you will remember a method of drawing the people into the table using a false explanation about "one card being shorter than every other card in the deck" (false play on words) and "a magnetic finish" I don't particularly like this ruse which is standard and indeed essential for Svengali workers brought up in the US way of pitching the cards. However it is indeed an excellent method of bringing people close to the table. I have adapted the technique and sometimes do this. "I'll teach you the secret. Come in close. If you move your legs your body will follow. You see that tiny mark on the back of the card. Just here. That's right. Come in close-you'll see it. The really tiny mark." At this point the punters crowd in really close (grafters unlike street performers want the audience really close to the table -"belly up to the joint" as Walker puts it) Once people are close enough I say "see that tiny little mark on the back?" I now pause and say "there isn't a tiny mark on the back. I just did that to get you to move in a bit" This gets a laugh. It is basically a variation of the Walker method suited to my own way of working. I only use it if I find that the punters are not as close as I like. But here is the point I am trying to make after the preceding long preamble. Walker states that you should stare down at the cards and not look at the punters under the principle that "it is a medical fact that if you look up at them and ask them to move in, they will actually move backwards". I have noticed that on the odd occasion there is actually some truth in this so I have followed the Walker dictum using this "tiny mark on the back" thing which is essentially the same technique as Walker's false explanation to get people to move in. However just the other day I went against the Walker grain and actually looked at people when I asked them to come in. It worked perfectly and in fact even better than following the advice of not looking at them. Go figure. On another note I have been getting a complex lately about the US way of working the cards. I keep hearing word of mouth wondrous tales of how much money is taken this way. Yet I have not seen it myself with my own eyes. I have never watched a US Svengali worker working live. You cannot judge how good the pitch is by watching someone on an edited tape. You have to watch the guy for a couple of hours to really get the flavour of it and see how much money is actually taken. Two things have been bugging me. The price of the US workers is always around $5. I like to work for $10 but give away extra stuff to make it worth it. The other thing that bugs me is the possibility that my method is too involved and looks difficult for the punters to do. This possibility was raised by a chap called Mota on the Magic Café. I have a suspicion that Mota may have been Walker himself. I was discussing the matter with him under the name "Raymond" when discussing in the review section Don Driver's Svengali tape which I have. Accordingly I booked in a mall all last week for the sole purpose of testing the US way and price structure out. I did it both ways all week. I have studied the Walker way of working and did it more or less word for word using the same tricks and same pitch. I even did the same false explanation using the magnetic finish bit. I get a laugh when I say "the cards stick together like static electricity. You know when you run a comb through your hair. I remember doing that once" Because of my lack of hair this gets a good laugh. I also used my own methods of pitching for comparison. Another thing I did was to test the price structure. I removed all the slum items and worked the cards for $5 at times. My complex is over. I am now 100% sure that my method of working is far, far superior. There really is no comparison whatever. Perhaps it is because I am more used to my way but I found that it really outshone the US Walker/Driver method by far. I sometimes wonder if Walker and Driver ever get a complex over my method. I do know they wistfully wish for a $10 price but they can't get it. I sometimes get it in certain venues without giving the slum away but most of the time the price is a little heavy even for me without giving the slum away. I think it would be a very amusing thing if my method winds them up as much as their method does with me. We have both been working our own methods for decades. I suspect all of us are too set in our ways to change now. The timing has been set in over decades of experience. People wishing to work Svengalis have a choice of working two ways. The US way or my way. Actually the US way has been marketed and explained. My way hasn't. I only detailed the routine I used in my book. People often call it a Svengali pitch book but it isn't. It is just a magic book with stories about pitchmen in it. I don't give away the secrets of getting money out of people. Mind you a little seeps out here. Here are the main differences between the US way and my way. I don't use a microphone although that may change in time because as I am getting older I am finding trouble with my throat that I never had before. I do not work mounted on a podium and in fact often work seated at a table with the punters towering over me instead of the other way round. I am not overly friendly with the public and in fact am very rude and aggressive. A very brash style which is not necessarily part of the UK method of working -it is just nasty old me. I am filled with great hatred of the public until they give me their money after which I am slightly more loving. My demonstration is far more visual and spectacular and I get far more gasps and laughs doing it my way. The criticism that my way frightens the punters away because of the perceived difficulty of the trick doesn't pan out when taking into account the actual sales. I have had very good sales over the years doing things my way. Perhaps the US Svengali workers get good sales too. Maybe they are more than mine. I will never know but I would love to. I keep hearing word of mouth tales of sales of 15 to 20 decks every pitch. One vendor told me that he had seen a woman Svengali worker sell to half of her crowds all day consistently. I am sceptical and will have to see it with my own eyes. I suspect the reality is somewhat different. Sure there will be good days but I would like to see the times when they do pitch after pitch and nobody buys a *** thing. It has happened to me many times and I am bloody sure it has happened to them despite all the tales I hear. I suppose I will never know for sure.Anybody out there watched a Svengali pitchman having a hard time? |
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Mr Grey New user 28 Posts |
I congratulate Ron on his sales.He is obviously happy with them. Does he mean that he sold 7 dozen in one day or over the whole 6 weeks?
I am not quite clear on this. How many days of actual work has it taken him to clear that many? |
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DonDriver Inner circle 1790 Posts |
Mr.Mark Lewis,a.k.a.raymond,Mr Grey
Dear Mr.Lewis, I know you can't come on the Café as Mark Lewis as you have been banned from this site as well as others magic sites on the net. I know its killing you that there is a Svengali pitch that works good and its not yours. Why do you keep at this.You go on and on.Let it lay,chill,life is too short. Please go away. Don Driver |
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Mr Grey New user 28 Posts |
Sorry Don. I am not Mark Lewis. I also noticed this false assumption on the Little Darlings section.Probably stemming from the posts here, I imagine. Not everyone who shows an interest in the Svengali deck is Mark Lewis you know.
I am amazed that people jump to wrong conclusions without checking their facts. I wonder if the position is reversed and the Lewis pitch is "killing" Don in the same way Mr Lewis admitted the Driver/Walker way is "killing" him. In any event all the discussion is perfectly valid and polite and I personally have not endorsed one way or the other. I am also helping Don's sales with the discussion of the matter. Ron Calhoun's post does give some clue to the matter. I would have thought that profits of only $20 to $30 an hour are on the slow side. Of course there may be some factors I do not know about such as weather, location and the type of punters that are watching him.And of course he is not as familiar with your pitch as you are. I am trying to be fair here but it sounds like the gross sales are only around $100 for two and a half hours work. That does not sound particularly spectacular. I am sorry if I have offended anyone but I do believe people should know about the two styles of pitching (which may be just as good as each other, I suspect) so that they can decide which way they want to go on the matter. It really is a very valid and indeed important topic of discussion. Livelihoods are at stake here. I would badly like to know which way takes the most money. If yours does then I will be very pleased and glad to accept the fact. However I do need a little evidence on the matter. Truthfully (and obviously I will have to accept your word on this) how much money can you take on an average day on an average flea market with your method? I know that at a State Fair you can take more because of longer hours and more people. I am sure that I am not the only person who is interested in the answer. |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
OK, I swore I wouldn't be baited, but maybe just this one time...
If Mr Grey isn't Mark Lewis then someone should contact Mr Lewis and tell him someone has stolen his writing style...nonetheless, I do have an opinion. Last weekend I did a science fiction convention in the dealers room...a few costume dealers, a few knife and sword dealers, a few authors famous within the sci-fi community selling their books, and me. I won't post how many decks I sold. Whether the number is high or low will not be believed by those who have a point to make either way...I am just going to add this... I used to do the David Walker pitch and now do Don Driver's. After this last weekend I am convinced Don Driver's pitch sold more that I would have with Dave Walker's...and this gets to my point... One major factor was Don Driver's pitch is shorter...I can't speak for the British, but in the US the attention spans are geared to short commmercials, and programs with frequent breaks. When I would experiment with going longer, adding a bit of business here and there, I would begin to lose them. Mark Lewis's routine is quite beautiful (see his website), but in my opinion way too long to be effective in the US in maximizing profits. Perhaps how he turns a tip may make a difference, but that is a moot point as we will be teased with it, but it probably won't happen. Two more points: First, I still have not done Mark Lewis's pitch for money...I don't have enough faith in the length to toss away sales I think are there. I would be quite open to hear from those who have done it...nothing proves me wrong like cash in the pocket. Second, I will be going out again to pitch Svengali's, and I will be using Don Driver's pitch and the extra info on the tape that allows you to give away something free...I've used it, and can tell you it's gold. |
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Mr Grey New user 28 Posts |
We have something in common. You suspect I am Mark Lewis and I suspect you are Dave Walker.
Perhaps we are both wrong? I have great respect for you whoever you are.I can also understand how someone who has been doing it one way for decades may find it hard to come to terms that there is another way available. I have always thought that the Walker pitch was too long and I can assure you that the Brits have a far shorter attention span than Americans do. The Lewis routine is very fast paced indeed and takes no longer than 5 minutes when the cards alone are being worked. It is a 7 minute pitch now in order to accomodate the slum items. I can assure you that the punters stay till the end. They are transfixed by what is going on and in any event they are reprimanded if they try to leave anyway. I have been led to understand from correspondance with the gentleman that he has worked in 5 countries selling Svengali decks. You may have heard of one of those countries. It is called the United States of America. He used exactly the same pitch as he did in the UK and all the other countries he worked.And sold just as many. Yanks are easier than Brits to sell to because generally they are more polite and friendly. What you have seen on the website is not the pitch. YOU have been "baiting" ME not the other way round! You may have done this inadvertantly but baiting is exactly what you have done. You have done this so well that I am now against my better judgement going to tell you everything I know about the Lewis pitch. A goldmine of information is about to descend upon you and anyone else on here. However I see absolutely no reason to post this information if I am not going to be treated with respect by the moderators here. What I have to say on this subject is valuable stuff which could literally change lives for anyone who wishes to make a living with the Svengali deck. I shall require an assurance from the moderators in advance that I will not be banned under the suspicion I am Mark Lewis. I see no reason why I should have to suffer this disrespect when I have always been polite to everyone here even if I have disagree with them. I never attack anyone unless they attack me first. I am always willing and indeed generous with information. However there is a line beyond which I will not go. The Svengali deck is that line. I am not willing to share priceless information with people that do not appreciate it. I need confirmation in advance that I will not be banned once you get this stuff. Since I have no way of deleting what I post after being banned I need official confirmation in advance. If it is not given then it will be this board's loss, not mine. No less a person than David Ben said "Mark Lewis is one of the greatest Svengali pitchmen of all time" I of course am not Mark Lewis but am privy to his information. Information that can earn anyone a lot of money. I will post no business information whatever. I have always thought that if someone deserves to sell Svengalis they will ferret out the information anyway as to where to work and where to buy stock etc; However you have baited me to at least tell how to pitch the cards and take the maximum amount of money. If this board wants the up to now secret information on how to sell Svengali decks from "one of the greatest Svengali pitchmen of all time" I am afraid that they will have to have to come halfway.There is a price to pay and that is the price. I don't see why I should share valuable information and be disrespected anyway. Assurance in advance. Then you get it. No assurance and you don't get it. Guess who will be the loser? |
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mota Inner circle 1658 Posts |
One thing's for sure...he's a real Svengali pitchman. He promises, but...
"Just one more thing and I'll show you how it all works..." Only a real pitchman would consistently talk like this. If he ever does turn the tip I'll be waiting. |
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Mr Grey New user 28 Posts |
I thought that when I wrote it!
And you must be a real pitchman to have noticed it! I am getting more suspicious by the minute that you must be Dave Walker himself. |
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shomemagic Inner circle Missouri 2232 Posts |
With all this discussion( for a better lack of words ) I have been convinced to purchase Mr. Drivers video and check it out myself.
It must be pretty good to get all this notice! So I'm sold, this is the one I have chosen to give a shot and will be using when I decide to...if it is workable! I don't care what else is available or the history behind it. I will post my unbiased review after viewing it. It will be based on the facts of it working or not working...period! If I find I personally can't use Mr. Drivers pitch, I will purchase another one and give it a try and will also give a unbiased review of it too! |
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