Silverking, very nice post and good to see you back. Your contributions are always of benefit.

Cag

Thanks Cagliostro, although a break is always nice (and probably a smart thing to do in order to keep perspective) - I've always greatly enjoyed this corner of the internet.

Re-reading my post, I'd probably change that ratio between "those who know" and "those who do" from a perhaps inaccurate 96%-4% to something more like a more accurate 80%-20%
There's simply some knowledge that can't be acquired by other than first hand experience (true of a lot of different fields of endeavor).

Glenn noted in his post some concerns about videos in general.
I don't mind watching posted videos, but other than posting some flash moves in the distant past for fun (my high-speed in the hands faro ) I don't feel the need to post videos.
I don't get into making and watching videos because when I want to see something done at or near the very best that it can be done - I simply watch my Steve Forte DVD's. The rest is me practicing for myself, but feeling no need to video that practice to share with others.

I've long accepted that the very latest moves will never be on video, and will never be shared anyway......so it's not like you're ever going to see some contemporary "real work" in a Youtube video.
The simple truth is that current, big money cheats don't visit magicians forums, don't tip, and don't care to share with anybody but their crew. It's simply not information most (if not all) of us are ever going to get our hands on (although it always leads to great information when you at least try).

Final note on something I've learned about "definitive statements" and the hubris that's almost by design attached to those statements when they're made about cheating. Statements like "DOC's not a real hustler", or "my n-strippers are the finest anywhere", or "that could never work", or ????? ----are almost always wrong!
Note I say "something I've learned" above - as those lessons related to hubris and definitive statements were lessons I learned through my own hubris, and my own definitive statements

While Doc may not see this message, I'd also like to express my thanks to him for sharing his latest videos, to Arnold for putting them up, and to Giuseppe for letting us know about them. Unfortunately the download limit had been reached so I only saw the two cold deck clips, but found them entertaining and inspiring, as ever.

T S-F K

As I have said many, many, many times, it depends on the situation.

Obviously, if you are playing against dope dealers, street thugs, murderers and the like, it is considerably more dangerous using a holdout than playing against bankers and businessmen who would not resort to violence. If you are playing against knowledgeable players the situation is different than playing against those who are very unsuspecting.

Further the holdout discussed in this thread is not the same as those described and known to Erdnase 120 years ago.

There are no absolutes in anything. One can agree with the almightily Erdnase in some areas and disagree in other areas. One does not necessarily obviate the other.

Also, a statement can be correct in one situation but not in another.

But then again I sure you already knew that. At least I hope you did???

You claim you're not Arnold and then go on to spout the same exact BS in the exact same way. You're a poor liar or a good medium. Either way you sound like a bad joke.

M, this is because you said that, that I asked you from the very beginning to prove it. Personally, I have never seen such a use with a cold deck. And I think it is extraordinary, fabulous, and I repeat never seen before. I pretend (contrary to you) that it is NOT published anywhere. I am not talking about Doc gambling or not gambling, I don't care. I just say that this move (cold deck + hold-out) is just extraordinary, and totally new.
Then you give me all your references about cheating, saying that it was his source of inspiration. Of course it was. Like the Tarbel. You can go even further: what would the guy do without the invention of paper? Do you think the invention of the ink helped him? Not to mention the cut of his shirt. Did you think of the invention of the table as one of his inspiration source?
This is just ridiculous. Sometimes you have to be humble, and admit that something is great. I pretend it is. You said he shot some common knowledge on Youtube and voila.
I even think that it is an intellectual dishonesty, because it is a serious accusation -pretending that he did not come up with something new and unique.
I challenged you to give me any proper reference, and you treat me hight, saying that it is not your responsability to give the proper book??? And you want me to agree with that? Are you serious?
I don't care if he gambles or not, if he has a big ego, even suicidary enough to publish his Facebook page as a gambler. I DO NOT CARE. The fact is, this man created some *** good moves here, and you are unable to prove me the contrary.
Now relax, because this is my last post on this subject, as I see no point in loosing my time with this nonsense.

Agreed JJ

Add mind altering substances and all bets are off.

I agree with you JJ on your above comments and respect your honesty and forthrightness which is of a high order in my opinion. I also have never had any problem with any of your posts although we may disagree from time to time. I think a pro and con discussion is so much more productive, especially where conflicting opinions can be examined. We all can learn and the older I get the more I understand how much I do not know. That is what makes “life” such a wonderful experience. It is the challenge of thinking.

I think that Doc does the moves he demonstrates on video skillfully and he has good hands for this type activity. And yes, he has come up with his own unique twists for some of his presentations, whereas some other things he does are very standard. I would say that any good card man, whether he is a cheat or a demonstrator can attest to his own unique variations that work well for him. I never had any problem with that and have attested in my posts that he is skillful in what he does.

But nothing is really new under the sun; it is all based on what has gone before. If that wasn’t the case, we would all have to “re-invent" the wheel anew every day in order to function. Rather it is the unique twists and variations that someone comes up with that can be described somewhat as “new.” I’m sure there are many card men on this BB that have come up with their own unique twists or variations to some move or gaff.

For example, the cold deck switch in question can be found in Forte’s Gambling Protection Series, DVD #3. Forte does it a little differently and uses an arm block which is actually more deceptive in my opinion, but it is the same move. Also, Frank Garcia in one of his publications (perhaps someone can help me here), described the exact same move in print together with two other cold deck moves. But that is irrelevant in my opinion. Also, I am not about to expose on the BB anything that in my opinion should not be discussed or exposed on a public forum.

So I agree with you JJ and have said so in my posts in this thread. Doc is skillful, does his moves very well and we should thank him for his contributions to this BB and allowing the members to view his unique twists and variations. The only thing that I was discussing (and it was a DISCUSSION and NOT an attack on Doc or anyone on this BB), were the claims he and his followers cavalierly state as truth simply because he is skillful at performing moves.

Like the very good discussion between Bishthemagish, myself and others on the Kennedy Center deal and Walter Scott, I believe one cannot blindly accept often stated beliefs simply because they have been repeated over and over again. I feel that these oftentimes unsubstantiated and supposed “truths” or “claims” should be discussed (not attacked) in an intelligent and civilized manner.

Doc’s “legendary” hustling prowess does not stand up under close scrutiny in my opinion and so stated my case in that regard. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t do some hustling to one degree or another. But this is a discussion – it is the other side of the coin (or in tommy’s case, the edge of the coin). Agree or disagree, it is healthy and I for one am happy we can do so.

Of course, since we are all human, when our cage is occasionally “rattled” and our strongly held beliefs are intelligently challenged, the “juices” begin to flow. At that point, we can either agree or disagree. Either way, as the French philosopher Rene Descartes said, “I think, therefore I am.”

We can be thankful for two things on this thread: The first is the Doc was kind enough to make these videos available to us. The second is that we are not world leaders with our fingers on the red button, because we may have very come close to nuclear engagement.

I for one, think this is a very good thread and peace to all contributed herein.

Bravo!

If only the moves were being discussed here - why we wouldn't have a problem at all.

Well said Cagliostro.

The only problem I have seen in most video's is that the technique in my opinion out of context. That is that the technique is shown however there is nothing in the video that shows it works under fire. Or that it works in real time situations.

And perhaps many on this bourd would agree that situations can be different.

My situation is from the point of view of a performer and using what works for me. And my interest is more of the "history". Rather than taking the argument of "if one could or could not" move with it in a real game. There is more that I could write about here about my own video's. However I don't see the need in getting on a soapbox at this time.

I don't mind watching video of just technique - I think it shows what is possible.

Cheers!

I agree. "Ignorance is bliss."

"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people."

Does that mean tiny minds discuss moves only?

"Ignorance is bliss."

Please tells Doc, if he can upload again his amazing three card monte video, pleaseee, I think all guys here will appreciate this favor.

thank you very much

Mandy