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DJP Veteran user London 391 Posts |
Dear All,
I have recently been comparing comments on the Café with my videos tapes that I own. I have noticed that there is a severe contrast in ideas and results. On the Café, members have talked about how they wish to make their magic more magical, relevant, credible, believable, etc., thus usually making their performances have substance, something that the audience can relate to via an emotional hook or experience. On the other hand, on several of my video tapes, for example, The Very Best of Jay Sankey, there seems to be no meaning, no emotional attachment with the performer and the audience thus making the performance seem aimless and emotionless. Actions such as “clicking of the fingers” and “waving the hands” to make the magic happen seem patronising and not credible. Jay has lots of material out there in tapes/dvds/books, etc., and for magicians this can be devastating as the performer is a role model, setting an indirect example of how magic “should” be performed, as he/ the working professional who gets paid to do his job. Thus is this why we see so many beginners performing meaningless magic? Even Ellusionist,the so called teacher to the magicians on the internet, has a poor performance of Fetcher’s “Be honest what is it” aka “2 Card Monte”. So surely these teachers are demeaning our magic by indirectly saying to us, “This is how to perform,” is it not? The complete opposite to these examples would be Tommy Wonder and his performance of “The Ring, Watch and the Wallet” where real emotion is expressed and gives the actions and performance credibility. Surely this is what we should all be striving for? So to stop presentation being demeaning to the magic in the future, teachers such as Sankey and co. should understand what effect their presentations have on other magicians and overall the future of the magic’s life. E.g. to be more than tricks? Your opinions please. Regards Dave
David
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Hawkan Elite user Sweden 495 Posts |
I think it´s a matter of focus. The videos and dvds most often focus on how to technically do the trick, the presentation is up to you. The videos are not meant to be entertaining in the same way, as the tricks would be when performed for laypeople. That´s just how I think it is, not necessarily how it should be.
Håkan |
JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts |
It's really a matter of people deciding what works for them. A performer is only a role model if someone makes them one. Also, it's possible to have negative role models (i.e., someone who you see perform and you say "That's what I DON'T want to do.") It just requires a bit of thought from the viewer -- they need to make the choices about what they will and will not do. No one else makes those choices for them.
For me, some positive role models (in terms of videos out there) are (in no particular order): Tommy Wonder Bill Malone Eugene Burger Alex Elmsley David Regal -Jim
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trickiewillie Regular user Virginia 128 Posts |
Your point is well stated. This is one of the reasons some people complain about videos. Students tend to mimic what they see instead of creating their own character and presentation.
In person, Jay Sankey is as much a comedian as he is a magician, maybe more comic than magician. This comic aspect is dropped on his videos and all you end up with is trick, trick, trick... Also, Jay creates many effects that he doesn't actually use, so he's just presenting them. It's up to you, the viewer, to develop a suitable presentation. There are videos, such as the ones by Tommy Wonder, where magicians are "magical," but the basic point is to teach more tricks. And -- regardless of what we may say -- most of us really want more tricks, not more instruction on how to perform. I like videos. I've learned a lot about how to perform by watching others (and sometimes learned what not to do). But we can't just copy someone else, good or bad. |
debaser Special user Boulder 557 Posts |
It should be noted that Jay is not a performer necessarily but more an inventor. Although this could be misrepresented in some of the advertising.
I think that you can't look for presentational ideas in magic media. At best you can get inspiration. |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
To address the issue raised in Dave's post and topic thread...
One chooses books and video according to one's interestes. Jay Sankey might prefer to discuss 'high tech-high touch' though has accepted that the market for his demands simple flashy effects that DO NOT depend on audience rapport or storytelling skills. There are other magicians who will share THE MECHANICS of their routines though not the presentations simply because it is expected that any performer will present an effect in a most personal style through their personae and it would be patronizing to suggest how one 'should' present an effect. On the other side of the rainbow are folks who truly wish to share presentations. These include Peter Saumulson, Jamy Ian Swiss, Eugene Berger, Max Maven... The material YOU choose reflects your interests and goals. I get uncomfortable when sweeping generalizations are used to introduce a topic of discussion. Dave, would you like to see more videos showing elaborate presentations? How about storytelling skills? What would you like to learn from a video? Writing from my own interests, I'm quite content to see mechanics and barebones presentations in INSTRUCTIONAL video so I can focus on learning or being inspired by what I see. I look elsewhere for presentation ideas and prefer to wait on doing an effect until I have some personal inspiration.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Dave,
The issue you raise is not really about magic precisely, but education, teaching and learning. The Zen Masters say that the teacher will appear when you are ready. Just so. When you understand what it is that you need to learn, then you will find the right teacher. You will take an active part in your learning, rather than sitting back and being an empty receptacle waiting to be filled up with someone else's knowledge. (I'm not using the word "you" here personally; I mean in general). I once had an acting teacher named Lloyd Richards. Best teacher I ever had. After spending two years studying with him, I had a disturbing dream--I dreamt that I was yelling at him, telling him that he didn't know what he was talking about, and that everything he had taught me was wrong. The day after I had that dream, I went to Lloyd and told him about the disturbing dream. He just gave a slow smile and softly said to me, "Congratulations, you've just passed the course." Sincerely, Jack Shalom
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Landmark writes: "The Zen Masters say that the teacher will appear when you are ready."
Maybe so, but when I was in high school, the teacher insisted on showing up whether I was ready or not! Seriously, Yavid2001 makes a very good point: Too many performers today, on tape at least, just "mail in" a performance and go through the motions, rather than trying to emotionally involve the audience. And that's the whole basis for entertainment, whether you are a magician, an actor, or a clown: You MUST involve the audience, otherwise you are just showing off your skill -- and that's rude and boring. |
Ross W Inner circle UK 1779 Posts |
I can't blame a lot of performers for not "performing" on their instructional videos. Why should Jay Sankey, for example, give away his best jokes and lines and gags? You can be certain people will copy them.
I've even found myself appropriating some of Michael Ammar's lame old lines when I've been caught short! (But I gave myself a severe talking to when I got home!) Ross |
Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Ross Welford writes: "Why should Jay Sankey, for example, give away his best jokes and lines and gags (on instructional tapes and DVDs)? You can be certain people will copy them."
Well, probably because he is SELLING them! Of course people will copy what's on a video or DVD; that's the whole point of making, selling, and buying them! If you don't want other people to use your material, then don't put out tapes and DVDs AT ALL! But, if you do, then at least the maker should have the decency to lay out your "A list" material, since you're taking someone else's hard-earned money for it! Or does that money just go for second-rate material? Hey, I freely give away some of my best material in my monthly Showtime column in the Linking Ring, on-line in the e-zine Visions, on the web sites Dragonskull and BizarreMagick.com, and about a zillion other places. If I didn't want people to use the material that I created, then I wouldn't do that, would I? And it compounds the problem when you sell the material! Boy, talk about chutzpah! cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
DJP Veteran user London 391 Posts |
Good challenging and supporting replies...
Håkan wrote... "I think it´s a matter of focus. The videos and dvds most often focus on how to technically do the trick, the presentation is up to you. The videos are not meant to be entertaining in the same way, as the tricks would be when performed for laypeople. That´s just how I think it is, not necessarily how it should be." On The Very Best of Sankey, Jay is performing to a real life lay audience (ok we know L and L's audience is a bit like the same that David Blaine has....e.g Jon!) and really should be interacting with them rather than the way he talks at them. I've seen Jay live and was exactly the same in person....still he is a really really funny guy. For me, I don't want to learn about presentation from a video, but I think that Sankey for example, teaching his very best material should be top of the presentation too when performing to lay audiences. To me watching him perform makes me squirm due to the patronising involed. Due to the Café I have learnt to how to choose what to put in my repetoire and what not to, the Sankey style is the idea of quick tricks and big impact.. for beginners who want to take magic seriously, seeing the big names perform is giving them false messages on how magic should be performed, that's all I'm saying and thus (a generalisation I know) but "if such and such does it that way then it must be right". Jon writes "Writing from my own interests, I'm quite content to see mechanics and barebones presentations in INSTRUCTIONAL video so I can focus on learning or being inspired by what I see. I look elsewhere for presentation ideas and prefer to wait on doing an effect until I have some personal inspiration." I too don't look for presentations from these tapes, I too look for instruction for an effect however I think when performing their A-list material the magic should be justified supported with a thought provoking, interactive performance not just, "the coins go from this hand to that". PS sorry for the generalisations. Teachers should expect to be mimiced, all the greats in their field are, e.g. David Beckham when it comes to football, and thus our field is magic and with that comes acting capabilities and story telling, which some teachers just do lack, and thus not furthering our field by inspiring us to so the same. Your opinions please, Sorry a bit long winded. Dave
David
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