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TJs Magic New user 41 Posts |
I was in class the other night discussing Magician Ethics and some big names came up to discuss the matter. I am just curious to what the majority census is concerning this matter. The question is, is it unethical to buy knock off brand props? Should a person spend $1,200.00 on a prop to buy it from the original creator, for a prop he does not yet know if it is right for him? Or is it O.K. to spend $4or5 hundred on a knock off version to save the money? These dollar amounts are just figuratively speaking.2nd I'm sure everyone in the magic biz knows new material can be very expensive for beginners with magic as a new interest, or for people who perform but not full time. I am personally a contractor and there are some things that are my specialty I do them just a little different than the average Joe, but I don't take it personally when someone else underbids me I think for the most part you get what you pay for. My point is this I personally sometimes buy a cheap version of something to see if it fits my show, if it does and it fits well, when it wears out which doesn't take long I usually invest in the original creators product so that I know I am buying quality. But I have to say I spend more time on a job because I pride myself in the quality but I also manage to stay competitive in price and some props seem very non-competitive in price. It's o.k. to be expensive but not astronomical.
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Franky33 New user 53 Posts |
You are missing a big point which is not relevant in the contractor business. The Theft of Intellectual Property. If you buy a cheaper prop that steals the idea of someone else you cannot at the same time expect people here to say it is OK. Think of it as Ying and Yang. Pay less but do the Wrong Thing or Pay More and Do the Right Thing.
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Octopus Sun Special user Wiggle Wiggle 586 Posts |
You answered your own question.
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george1953 Inner circle Mallorca (Spain) 5943 Posts |
Apart from anything else the cheaper godos (normally from China) are vastlyinferior in quality. Would you buy a cheaper car whosebrakes could fail at any momento ?
By failing to prepare, we are preparing to fail.
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Yes, it is unethical as ethics go, but, I cannot believe you have not noticed, if it is true what you wrote. All the so called knock-offs are not made to work the same way. They usually cut down the manufacturing process so far, that is just a rotten prop all the way around. I have purchased China and India magic, most are worthless to actually use in a show that you expect to get paid for in the end.
Another thing, you are trying to compare your contractor job to a professional entertainment income producing job. I guess you would perform an heart surgery on a person to so he can save a few dollars. Who needs heart surgeons, not you. I do understand where you are coming from with out of sight prices on some items, but today the craftsman expect to make a profit as a business. That was not necessarily true in the 1960's. Now, they expect to support their business and families with the income generated. Magic props is not a house or generally well know methods of assembly. It is usually totally new prop, which means research and development. Notice the computer world created the now common - Version 2.0, there was never a 2.0 years ago. It was totally perfected with years of performance hours. No you get some idea someone thought up when he woke up in the morning. It was only new to the market place, not invented that morning. Actually, most of the magic years ago, was from 10 to 50 years old before it was offered to the magic community. Before complaining, I suggest you actually build a trick or illusion, and see for yourself. Everything must be of the best materials in the world as well, not cutting corners. Then don't forget the graphics creator you have to hire or commission, the designs must be the very best original designs. I remember when I put ups new drywall in a room. It was not expensive at all, but when I went to by the paint, it turned out to be 5 times the price of the drywall. |
Robin4Kids Veteran user Lower Alabama 396 Posts |
This is not a problem exclusive to the magic industry. Having been in the manufacturing business for part of my career, we developed and manufactured new products; advertised and promoted them, only to see competitors knock them off with their own version. If you are willing to go to the time and expense to protect your product with patents, trademarks, etc., you can keep others from knocking off your creation. But even after going to all that trouble, you still have to continue to protect it legally, which costs you more money! Unless you go through the proper steps to protect your product, others can legally copy you. Does this make it right?... of course not. But unfortunately that is the way it works in every other industry that sells products or services. Sad as it might seem, if you don't do it the right way, ethics won't protect you!
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TJs Magic New user 41 Posts |
Well I guess everyone does have the same view. I would like to mention Mr. Hegbli I think it's a little unfair and a little stupid to compare prop maker to a heart surgeon some things are irreplaceable like your heart. Secondly yes I have noticed that even the way cheap props work are different. In some cases I have had to rebuild them after they were received. Also I'm not complaining I was just curious as to how most of the Magic community felt about buying cheaper props before buying quality ones. I have built several of my own props which I guess is wrong to, because someone else thought of it first, but yes I have spent many hours in my shop and a lot more money on better quality materials so my props look professional. I also know that if I were building them for the public I would want to give them the same quality but once you have the demensions right, most of any prop has a pattern after the mold. To make things faster. Listen I'm not against buying original props I agree with the ethics of the inventor should have credit and rights to his product. To be honest I only own one prop (other than what I've built myself) that is a knock off. But when I was first getting started that was not the case and I performed many shows with them. I was paid, and I've been paid by the same people to come back and perform again so I feel like they were pleased or they wouldn't have called back otherwise. But I put back into my Magic and because of those first paying shows I could afford to buy the better quality for the next show. I also know not everyone buys a cheap prop with the intent to replace it with a quality one later. But I often think about the teenager or beginner just getting started wanting to be an entertainer but when he looks at the cost he decides it's just to expensive and stays away from it.
And franky33 yes it is a little different "stealing intellectual property" but do you think someone didn't come up with the design of the Colonial style home? The Ranch Style House? New modern housing design? When people build houses they say I want my house to look like this. I also feel like it's yen and yang. A good contractor picks through the material and doesn't skimp because he can buy something cheap he gives them a quality house for a quality price. Or they can spend a few thousand less and get a "jack leg" carpenter and get about half of what they wanted cheaper windows, doors, etc. For a family on a tight budget (or magician) they can always comeback later and pay for the better door, windows, etc. I sure didn't mean to drag my work into this LOL. I try to never get these two things close to each other I was just using construction as an example due to building something. |
Magic Pierre Loyal user 212 Posts |
Quote:
Well it's not comparable. Look, with "cups and balls" or the linking rings you can spend as much or as little as you want to buy the trick from whoever. We don't even know who the inventors of these tricks are. It can no longer be said to be the intellectual property of any living individual. The kinds of things you are talking about are the intellectual property of someone identifiable, and who could probably tell how much work went into the prop. I personally know a lot of manufacturers who went out of business because the Chinese came in and reverse engineered their processes and then way underbid them. I personal have had users of manufactured parts and supplies tell me that it was more cost effective for them to buy badly manufactured Chinese or Mexican items and spend the money to fix them here, than to buy the original items here. So how would you feel if you were that guy who had spent forever designing a prop, building it, redesigning it, over and over until you had it just right, and then you see a Chinese manufactured knock-off selling for 1/3 the price somewhere? And some guy like you saying, "yeah, I buy the crummy knock off first and use it till it breaks or wears out and then *maybe* I buy the original?" What happens when the person who buys the knock off decides, based on the fact that it doesn't perform well (whereas yours would have) not only never buys your product because he has decided, based on the knock-off's poor performance that it's a crummy trick, but comes on Magic Café and tells everyone it's a crummy trick and damages your sales? I think this is all around a bad proposition for almost everyone concerned. Just my opinion. |
TJs Magic New user 41 Posts |
Magic Pierre,
I think your answer makes the most sense. Though I still feel like just as you understand the prop industry I very much believe it's the same thing when dealing with structural design or anything else for that matter. Such as does everyone drive a Ford vs. a Toyota or a John Deer/Waterloo Boy vs. a Kubota or Cub cadet. I would never personally good bad or ugly post on magic café about a prop that I thought was junk especially if it was a knock-off. I have only on a few occasions ever called the magic shop to express my dis-satisfaction with a prop. Also to my knowledge I have never purchased anything directly from China everything I have came from a magic shop in the U.S. but some items have said made in China once I received them. So I take it everyone thinks if you can't afford the original, as a magicians code of ethics, you shouldn't have one at all. |
Wizard of Oz Inner circle Most people wish I didn't have 5150 Posts |
TJs Magic, this subject has been discussed a lot here on The Café, which by no means should discourage you from asking the question. It does however point out how problematic and complex the issue is, and how it may never be resolved. I think it all comes down to what you believe is right, and if in fact, you are willing to put your money where your conscience is.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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TJs Magic New user 41 Posts |
Thanks Oz,
I agree this is a very complex issue. It would be great if magicians could come up with a law binding way to copyright or hold a paten on there ideas that way buying props would not have to be so complex. You could buy from whom ever had rights to sale it legally, and if they didn't it would become a legal issue. Instead of an ethics issue of whether or not your this or that kind of person/magician. I've never intentionally beat anybody out of anything I work hard for what I have as I know others do. I think most people write in on these matters with the best of intentions and if you don't want to know what people think don't ask. (LOL) I to am one to speak my mind, but tact(which you seem to have a lot of, guess that's why your the Wizard:)goes a long way in discussion of complex topics. Instead of having a small break down:) Ethics or Moral compass in my opinion are the most important things we have as individuals but I don't sweat the small stuff. Thanks for the wise words Wiz. |
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