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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts |
I've just received it today...with the 2 dvd
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts |
I'm just at the beginning of the book and I think I will appreciate it...
I read somethink that makes me meditate. Al talks about the 5 steps in magics. Immediatly, I think about a lot of simple examples. Let's take a color change with cards (Vernon's adaptation of Houdini color change : described in Inner Card Trilogy). Obviously, if you makes it well, people have a strong reaction whithout having enough time to go from step 1 to step 5 (they react at step 3). After a moment, they eventually (maybe) go to steps 4 and 5. But they were fooled at step 3 and they were aware of it. Can a trick be magic whitout steps 4 and 5? Or is step 3 just a surprise? Is the strong reaction sufficient to fool and entertain (that's an other thing) people? Obviously, in this example, the color change is just a phase in a routine (minimum : hook, choice of a card, loosing the card, take an other card, change it to the choosen card, show the choosen card). Does people go to step 4 and 5 at the end of the routine or at the end of the color change? It will be cool if Al (and other magicians) can tell us a little more about it. I have my own idea but I appreciate having other points of view. |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
I am not going to try and convince you.
If I understand Al's reasoning, he states that a properly executed illusion (I hate the word "trick") involves five steps. You can not cherry pick. He is very lucid in his explanation, which I do not want to go into in this area of the public access forum, but to answer your question, the spectator goes through ALL five stages. He is defining what is happening at each part. This should occur every time you perform regardless of the content. What he is suggesting is that you form your routine to accommodate these steps to give a properly magical experience. I understand this book is going to a challenge if it is in English as it is not your first language. If I have confuse you more, let me know and I will PM you and try and clarify. Jerry |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-03 22:20, Jerry wrote: In my example, I said people were fooled at step 3. I'm not sure , in fact. At step 3, they react because they saw something very unusual. They were surprised. A reaction doesn't mean that you are fooled (example : when someone scares you). A process (step 4 and 5) lead the spectator to the conclusion he is fooled. This book doesn't challenge me even if english is not my first language (as you can see in my posts) because magic books are more easy to read than other kind of books (as far as language is concerned). The words authors use are often enough simple to be understand by strangers. I can read magic books easily (I have about 200 books in english) but that is not be the case if I read shakespeare. In addition, reading is easy but writing is hard. |
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Leo Reynolds Jr Special user 864 Posts |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
Al's purpose was to break down what was transpiring during the course of the presentation. You may agree or not if this process is accurate.
On page 12 last paragraph he states "The initial reason I came up with the five steps was not to explain magic, but to ascertain what might go wrong with the process". He then gives examples. My response is to your question, is no you can not leave out steps 4 and 5 to Al Schneider's "Five Steps of Deception" it make his objective null. Suddenly screaming to scare someone is different from performing magic. Doing a pointless card color change, is a simple "trick/puzzle" not magic. What you like to do? Puzzles or Magic? Jerry |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts |
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On 2013-08-04 14:30, Jerry wrote: I prefer magic But making the whole process (step 1 to step 5) can also lead to a puzzle because, in a puzzle, people are fooled too. In parallel of the 5 steps, other actions must be used to lead the spectator think he was fooled by a mystery rather by a puzzle... |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
Ask any mystery writer (a good mystery writer, exclude hacks) if this is true: "A Mystery book/play/movie/presentation has all of the clues to resolve the unknown.
A puzzle can be resolved with enough time and effort. There is resolution. I am restricting this definition too man made entertainment, not science or criminal mysteries. Magic CAN be presented as a puzzle and has elements of mystery, but it should not. This is why audience feel compelled for an answer and feel cheated and resentful when magic is perform as a puzzle. The performer has broken the rules. He has withheld and not disclosed all of the clues. This is why magic gets a bad reputation. Because the majority of the magicians do not invest in presentation or theater. Even in skill. And too much on gimmicks and "tricks". So, now that we have strip the two meanings apart and you state you desire to do a magical presentation, is this book helping you with that goal? The book has for me. Also, I want to read his book "The Theory and Practice of Magical Deception" to explore this subject more in-depth. Please view his DVD's that you received (if it is the Al Schneider Technique DVD) this may assist your questions. So yes, magic can be presented as a puzzle, but it should not, as the results is a frustrating experience for the spectator. You can not avoid steps 4 and 5, as this a template to explain a process. It is a tool. Yes you can saw off the head of hammer, but then, it is no longer a hammer. You destroy the tool. I don't want to fool people. I want to create a magic, if even for only a brief moment. Jerry |
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Craig Ousterling Special user 585 Posts |
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On 2013-08-04 15:37, Jiceh wrote: I don't want to assume you've stopped reading, but it sounds like you haven't got to the part about assumptions? If dumped a whole bucket of water onto a lit candle does that make me a fire fighter? |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts |
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On 2013-08-05 11:02, Craig Ousterling wrote: I've read the part about assumptions (and I've already read something similar in a book about perception - not about magic). The part about "Assumptions" doesn't answer to the distinction puzzle-mystery but rather about the way people come on with bad conclusions... |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
Jiceh, we are drifting somewhat on the this topic, the subject is "Convince me.." It's changing into what is a puzzle, what is a trick; what is a mystery; what is magic.
Was the information given to you on the Café accurate and are you happy with the purchase? Did the book meet your needs or is still to premature for this question? For those who are not familiar with this book, it is a representation of Al Schneider's philosophy of magic using his routines or his take on existing items. The book contains complete routines on LA Street Cups; Matrix (his invention) Halo (linking ring/bracelet); Wings of Metal (coins) and collection of other bits involving cards; coins; paper; and miscellaneous magic. All close-up type magic. 732 pages of hardbound greatness. Jerry |
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Craig Ousterling Special user 585 Posts |
Maybe getting stuck on the 5 steps being the solution, but I shouldn't be making assumptions so I don't really know.
We can add to the distinction puzzle-mystery-that what if the person doesn't care, instead of being puzzled or mystified? Mr. Schneider writes right after that (but not in these exact words) because of this the 5 steps falls short but comes really close. When you add "...In parallel of the 5 steps, other actions must be used..." (these actions should support inserting assumptions into spectators mind here) "...to lead the spectator..." that the mystery thing starts to work well. Add to this the Intention of Reality and the mystery starts working really well, and when you add the Intention of Magic the mystery starts to work REALLY REALLY well. I don't want to get more detailed with this. I think people should buy the book to get this information. For me, the first 26 pages were worth the price. (Thanks for the book Byron!) I've been told the color blue doesn't look the same to me as it does to other people. |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts |
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On 2013-08-05 15:47, Jerry wrote: Jerry, we are drifting somewhat on this topic : yes As far as the book is concerned, I'm just at the beginning but I have seen the 2 DVD (the first 2 of the l&l collection). I like very much matrix abd coins across even if I knew already this routine. I discover his fantastic rope and ring routine but there no final. Curious? |
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