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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts |
I believe that life without parole would have been appropriate for the murderer Hasan because he's admitted his crimes, wants to be a martyr and wishes death. Though I have no problem seeing him take the needle (the electric chair and all the prep for that would have been more suitable to my taste for justice, and I believe I stated that way back, but it is what it is).
I already said I'm on the fence with the death penalty because I also believe innocents have been executed. That isn't justice, it's deplorable. I was almost hoping they would give him life without parole, but not because I have any doubt that he's guilty. That Life Without Parole would be without cable tv in his cell, no radio, computer access, and sharing a cell with someone else who would probably enjoy the opportunity to shiv him in the shower; no exercise equipment or other conveniences we see in prisons today. That would be just punishment. And no parole. Period. No legal tricks from the ACLU. Done deal. Life until death. In prison. The only thing I now wish for is a long, lengthy federal appeal in which Hasan has time to think. Especially with a cell mate.
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
What gives you the idea that the ACLU would use "legal tricks" to get an admitted mass murderer out of prison? Any examples?
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
The Fort Hood shooter, if found guilty, should be executed.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Pakar-
He WAS found guilty and has been sentenced to death. That may take some time, however, as there is an automatic and mandatory appeals procedure. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 04:56, mastermindreader wrote: Oops, should've checked. My bad. Then, he should be executed.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Okay, everyone for the penalty in general is proceeding on the assumption that the death penalty is applied equally. Now, I've voice my opposition to capital punishment from a theological standpoint. But, I'll play Devil's advocate here. (Weird, I know).
There is a saying among those who are on death row that those who don't have the capital get the punishment. So the basic argument I see pro-death penalty people advocating is the punishment should fit the crime. Yet Sammy "The Bull" Gravano killed 19 people and possible more. He plea bargained and got 5 years. A poor or indigent defendant is much more likely to receive the death penalty than a middle or upper class defendant. Now there are two problems already built into the system: Plea bargains are not created equally. There has never been a Mafia "made" man executed. The only high ranking "connected" mobster executed was at Sing Sing in 1944: Louis "Lepke" Buchhalter. Two others were executed that same night: "Mendy" Weiss (not "made"; a member of Murder, Inc.), and Ralph Capone (no relation to Al). John Giotti was found guilty of a number of high profile murders, and was sentenced to LWOP and he died in Marion Correctional of natural causes. The death sentence was applicable in Gotti's case as well as Gravano's. Gravano is alive and well - and FREE. Very few serial killers are executed. The Green River Killer was NOT sentenced to death and neither was the Unabomber. Gacy was executed, Dahmer was given LWOP and was beaten to death in prison. Henry Lee Lucas's death sentence was the only death sentence commuted to LWOP by then Governor George W. Bush of Texas. As far as capital against the punishment, the Mafia certainly has that. I won't get into specifics, but, I grew up around Cosa Nostra and my so-called father, found guilty of at two murders pled out - ratted - and received two LWOPs plus sixty two years to run consecutively. His cohorts against whom he testified also received LWOP and all three died of natural causes, yet all were killers. (My stance against the death penalty has nothing to do with my so-called father. There are other circumstances that are involved. And as much as I would like to see him dead, I cannot justify the death penalty on any grounds). You can argue mitigating circumstances. In fact when juries deliberate in the penalty phase of a capital trial, they weigh aggravating versus mitigating circumstances. No mitigating circumstances were found in favor of Gotti and moreover, he didn't testify (rat) against anyone yet, no DP. Gravano escaped the needle because he sang. So if you are going to defend capital punishment, you need to defend the reasons why these criminals were not executed while others who do not possess the means to have effective legal representation are executed. We were not at war with the former Soviet Union when Ethel and Julius Rosenberg were executed. Under federal law, they should have been found guilty of espionage, not treason. But again, let's say that the secrets Julius supposedly sold the Soviets hastened the Soviets' acquisition of nuclear weapons. Rosenberg was for all intents and purposes executed for what COULD be called "potential" murder. The punishment in this case did not fit the crime. Since Tomski offered an opportunity for us to give our perspectives on the DP, I believe these arguments are relative. The Rosenbergs were given the ultimate sanction yet killed no one. You advocates need to defend that. Texas and Georgia are rife with prosecutorial misconduct. Defense attorneys sleeping during trial yet judges ruling that these inmates received competent counsel! There have been cases in which TAX attorneys were court assigned to defend in capital cases. I don't know how many attorneys we have on this board, but, can you honestly defend in a capital case if you are not trained in criminal law, and moreover in the special area of capital defense? Cameron Todd Willingham was executed DESPITE overwhelming forensic evidence that he in fact did NOT commit the arson that led to the murders of his children. Gov. Perry KNEW this new forensic evidence existed and yet chose to refuse a hearing on the matter and after Willingham's execution, a commission was set up to examine the evidence. One the eve of the revelation of the committee's findings - which anonymous insiders stated that the committee concluded Willingham was NOT guily, Perry fired the head of the committee (he used the euphemism "replaced") and two other members with his OWN appointees. The new committee head has stated that the evidence is inconclusive and needs MORE study. And this should REALLY scare you: "Eight years after Cameron Todd Willingham was executed for setting a fire that killed his three children, in a case now widely faulted for its use of flawed arson science, his relatives are seeking a posthumous pardon from state officials. In 2010, Judge Charlie Baird wrote an order that would have exonerated Todd Willingham. As the Huffington Post reported, “Baird’s order clearing Willingham’s name never became official, because a higher court halted the posthumous inquiry while it considered whether the judge had authority to examine the capital case.” “This Court orders the exoneration of Cameron Todd Willingham for murdering his three daughters. In light of the overwhelming, credible, and reliable evidence presented by the Petitioners, this Court holds that the State of Texas wrongfully executed Cameron Todd Willingham.” Read the judge's exoneration order which was quashed by a higher court here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/94158960/Order......llingham Even those who are statistically challenged MUST admit that even dismissing Willingham's execution, the United States of America HAS executed innocent people. Why? DNA exonerations provide the statistical proof. Because of high number of exonerations with the advent of DNA testing plus significant advances in forensic's, it stands to reason that prior to these, it is a certainty that statistically speaking we have executed innocents. Here's another chilling link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_ex......d_States And it isn't just the United States. Might as well read the whole page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution Now, advocates will argue that Hasan clearly committed the mass murder at Fort Hood and so will anti-DP people. Yet defenders, how does Hasan differ from Gravano and Gotti - especially Gotti who didn't even plea bargain? Mafia trials are federal trials and the death penalty was certainly an option for the prosecutors yet Gotti was spared. You might argue that Gravano, Gotti, and virtually every mobster either ordered or directly murdered another but that the victims in these cases were other criminals whereas the victims at Fort Hood were innocents and thus Hasan is more deserving of the ultimate sanction. However, to argue that, you would have to point to legal precedent to defend such a position and no legal precedent exists in case law nor does any state or federal statute dictate that the killing of other criminals is less heinous than the killing of innocents. I will say this: while I disagree with the death penalty, I at least respect those defenders of it who are honest and state that they WANT retribution and are honest enough to admit that in fact the death penalty is not about justice given its history of discretionary practice, but rather is about retribution; justice and retribution are not the same thing. If they were, then vigilantism would not be a crime. If someone - God forbid - would murder a loved one and I chose to seek out and whack the killer, I would be guilty of murder or manslaughter at the very least. In the case of the State, executions are premeditated, discretionary acts of murder as retribution that are legal. The State whacks criminals; Gotti and Gravano whacked criminals. What's the difference? You could defend by countering that the State is invested legally with this power while the Mafia is not. Yet the irony is this: the Mafia is a hell of a lot more clear on who gets whacked; it seems their death penalty statutes are far more sound than those of legitimate governments. Finally, many murder victim's families have stated that executions in fact bring no "closure." Instead, many report that instead of one death, they now have two. There have been victims' families who have pleaded with prosecutors NOT to seek the death penalty, yet prosecutors have gone ahead, despite the families' wishes and sought the DP. These prosecutors have stripped these families of healing. There is much that is wrong with the death penalty and not just the reasons and arguments I've outlined. What's more, the paper I wrote on the DP actually explores other areas we've not considered. Best, Vlad |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 00:54, Bob1Dog wrote: Bob, I agree with part of your argument. But I find the statement about the electric chair worrisome because the subtext is that you want this man to be subjected to a more extreme METHOD of execution. If one advocates the use of the death penalty as a form of "justice", how is justice served by making the method more excruciating? If the death penalty is justice - which it isn't; it's homicide - then the offender dies. Why then would the electric chair be more suited to your "taste?" Best, Vlad |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Vlad: very powerful. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Be that as it may...
The Fort Hood shooter should be executed.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
We've gone over the subject so many times....
But Vlad has offered some new energy to the topic, and I want to publicly say that I appreciate it. To repeat my own view: I simply don't like crying out for blood. I don't think "justice" is about blood, but a well-ordered place for human beings to seek and find happiness. I just wrote a bunch more, but erased it. I'll stand by my statement about justice. Whatever it might be or not, it isn't about removing people from the world of the living. There is no justice for dead people. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 07:58, Vlad_77 wrote: Why this initial assumption?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I don't believe it has EVER been applied equally and I don't know anyone who thinks it has.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 08:02, Vlad_77 wrote: I agree. Why not just promote torture like drawing and quartering? Maybe because the purpose of executing criminals, regardless of justification, is NOT to satisfy our own blood-lust. |
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 08:02, Vlad_77 wrote: Then we'll have to agree to disagree Vlad. If you'll carefully read my post, I didn't say I advocated the electric chair for all executions, but I would have no problem for using it with the Fort Hood Killer. None whatsoever. I agree, it is cruel and unusual punishment, but this guy deserves it. Just my opinion, to which I and you are each entitled.
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 11:56, mastermindreader wrote: I love it! You just can't help yourself. <shaking my head in disbelief> Deflect deflect deflect. LOL. I'll direct you to the post I just responded to Vlad with. bye bye.
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Bye bye to you as well!
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Bob1Dog, your response to Vlad is exactly what Mr. Cassidy was talking about.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 08:25, stoneunhinged wrote: Then why do you have a hangman's noose in your pic? kidding
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-08-31 08:02, Vlad_77 wrote: Why do you consider "homicide" and "justice" mutually exclusive. "Homicide" is value-neutral.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
I believe part of the problem with life in prison is that some people who live on the outside do not have it as good as those who committed a crime with a possible death sentence and only got life in prison.
I do agree with Danny. I am sure life in prison is not easy. But it is not supposed to be. It is after all punishment. But it sure isn't death.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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