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Mindpro Eternal Order 10585 Posts |
***Long post warning, as I address many of the posters in this thread...
I appreciate the responses to this question. This, as expected, has exposed many of the problems faced by those releasing information products. Learning is subjective - everyone has things that are of interest and importance to them specifically A big problem I regularly see here and it has shown it’s head again in this thread is separating and confusing a “business course” and a “marketing course” These are two different things. Marketing is part of a business course or system, but business is not part of most marketing courses. Many magicians here as well as other types of entertainers mistakenly believe that operating as a performer means getting a show down and well-rehearsed and then marketing it. Simply put this is why most fail or fall short of their expectations. It is also why some excel and succeed quite well, while others never seem to get out of the gate, are always chasing their next booking, and can’t for the life of them seem to understand why some guys claim to do so well while they’re struggling. This also is a key element in the separation of the different levels of entertainers. Most really do not operate as a business, but rather as a performer. There is a big difference. Also most here operate as magicians, when they should be operating as entertainers. Again big differences. Operating as a magician is very limiting in many facets, which many never realize. Anyone can do magic, not everyone can be an entertainer. This is not meant to be offensive or directed at anyone specific, but as an overall perspective. How many of you got a magic set as a kid and have been doing magic since then? That’s the appeal of magic, anyone can do it in some form. That doesn’t make you an entertainer. You are in the business of entertainment. Magic is just the source you use to do this. So this brings out the continuous problem that, as many demonstrated in this thread, that each expect different things, usually based on the way they operate. Those that truly operate as an entertainment business at some level, know there’s much more to it than a show and marketing, which is why they say things like Scott Burton mentioned having interest in modules, market specifics, growing and expanding to new markets, positioning, value, etc. charliecheckers pointed out that private coaching and mentoring can often be the absolute best money spent for your time, effort and progress. I have been coaching students in entertainment business for some years now and it truly trumps most other types of learning because it is specific and directly tailored and applicable to you, your business, your business plan, and choices. There is no more direct learning than that. It’s most direct, most effective and the absolute fastest way to get from where you are to where you want to be. I agree with resources unique to our industry. I’ve always believed and teach that entertainment has it’s own set of rules and operates differently from conventional business. So many try to conduct entertainment business with standard business methods and mentalities which can in many areas set us up for failure. Understanding these differences is key. Also educating prospects is crucially important or they will be shopping based on traditional business mentalities. I see this problem with nearly every kids performer or consumer-level performer I’ve ever met. Industry-specific is a must. I hope to offer an advanced series of releases that will get into the more controversial topics and concepts, and advance concepts than most entertainers are not aware of or never realize exists. With that said, as I stated earlier, most entertainers are simply not willing to invest in themselves or their business to this extent. They’d rather pay for a program or course and pick several things that may be of interest or apply to them and then try to tweak things to them accordingly. Since we all are seeking different things, the result is often that no single program offers everything everyone wants or needs, which leads to the picking apart of different programs and the deeming them poor, good and pretty good. Chris - I’ve spent the last few years compiling and writing material based on my 37 years in entertainment as a performer, agency(s) owner, producer and promoter. It began with updating some of my previous writings that I have been away from for a while. In doing so, many additional and off-shoot material has come to light. What started out as a book, has evolved to a course, then became two courses, and now even more advanced material. It has evolved to almost a line of products, which was never my intention. However, as I’m considering releasing it, what immediately comes to mind is the many different levels of performers, the different preferred content and methods of learning and studying, and unrealistic expectations of many. Seems everyone wants all the information they could possibly need, and for a price of $29.99. It really isn’t possible. There is a difference between contents of a book and the contents of a course, and a lifetime of content in many different areas. It really can’t be put into just one release. The questions I’ve asked here are to simply help me to decide if it’s worth it and if and how I prefer to proceed. I’ve realized I have so much to offer that could be valuable to many here on other entertainment communities I am part of. While you are correct that I do stage hypnosis coaching and business training, the majority of my coaching is in entertainment business operations - amateurs and hobbyists wanting to go pro, part-timers wishing to become full-time, and full-timers wanting to take their current business to the next or advance levels. I’ve been very selective of who I accept. I typically only accept one out of every 14 or 15 applicants because of the personal attention I provide them on a weekly basis. Not currently into the Skype thing yet, most of my trainings are by phone, online or in live events. But may consider the move to Skype as the year goes on. What I coach and what my materials would be about is strictly the business of owning and operating a successful entertainment business on all levels as desired - local, regional, national and international. These should not be presented together, which can be both a problem and a benefit. For many it’s also a process. I like your ideas and expectations of such content and material. Thanks for your thoughts. Tacrowl - I agree with many of your sentiments and that seems to be the problem for those that do release materials. I also agree that I haven’t had or used a business card in, I’m guessing 12 years. For Paddy’s market and level of entertainment it may be more essential, in others perhaps not the case. Scott - your are correct, one size fits all rarely works well. I like time-released learning and having separate modules or components as well, but many never follow through or stick with the process, they seem to want it all now, which causes many crucial things to be brushed over, and selective studying and comprehension. It’s like all of these “expert comes in and takes over shows” - Restaurant Impossible, Kitchen Nightmares, Bar Rescue, Tabitha Takes Over, etc. The one common thing in ALL of these, in EVERY single situation, is the business owners never see the real problems within their business. What they think is the problem is never the problem, but several other things that the expert points out. They all think their food is great, their decor and atmosphere is fine and can’t seem to figure out why they are not succeeding. THEN, once the expert points it it, THEY TAKE OFFENSE! This is exactly how it is with many entertainers. They aren’t truly operating their business, and in many cases have no idea how to do so. They think all they’re lacking is marketing. This is terribly wrong. magicofcurtis - I’m not hiding behind a screen name. Many here know me, may have seen my live performances and national television appearances, several even students. To set the facts straight, as some here may remember, I was the first to release a course for entertainers on a television informercial in the late 80‘s and early 90’s. So this is not something new. Secondly, I am not a magician and would never release a “magic course”. As I said earlier, a magic course is for magicians. What I do is for entertainers and entertainment business. I have booked nearly every type of entertainer available in my career. I am on many different entertainment and entertainers forums, not just here, where I’m known by other names as well as my own (if they are private and unsearchable). As long as I’m here I will be Mindpro which is a name for one of my businesses. Paddy - while I agree that it’s what you do to get the phone to ring, it is also what you do once the phone rings. Truth be told most performers do PIW marketing (my students know what I mean), and have no business system in place for once the calls do come in. 90% of them blow it at this point, usually never realizing it, then explaining it off as “they were shopping on price alone”, or “it was outside my preferred area”, or “they seemed difficult anyhow”, or one of many other justifications. They called you, you had the control, you should have the skills and system in place to pre-qualify, qualify and convert at the highest possible ratio for the absolute best price (not you Paddy, but in general). Most lose it at this point, which is why they have to continuously chase after their next gig, and up their marketing efforts (and expense). Also you bring up a good point, most performers do not know how to properly position themselves and network properly or successfully. Gerry Walkowski - you hit it on the head, those are the two main things it boils down to - getting leads and converting them to shows. But both of those are a process that must work independently as well as in tandem with each other. Without a system in place they will almost never work in harmony just by chance. Qualifying is another concept so important that seems to be greatly missing and not understood. Herein lies the true problem. My original course was for those just starting out in entertainment. I have been in the process of updating and revising that since it’s long been out of print and unavailable. In doing so, I began to realize that their is much interest in advance content as Scott mentioned and as I regularly receive PMs about such as working with agents/agencies, four-walling and self-produced events, media (t.v. and radio), the school market, tours, fundraisers, press releases, starting and operating an agency, BOR, and so many other topics. It would be virtually impossible to include all of this and still keep it affordable. As Scott mentioned, separate components may be the best way to go. Dynamike - seems you are looking for very specifics as they pertain solely to your interest in magic. I won’t likely be of much help here, as I’ve said anything I release would be industry-specific but that genre specific, other than for perhaps specific performance markets. At least initially. I think we may have many opposing views and perspectives of approaching this business which may be due to many varying factors. Of course there is no right or wrong, but rather what works best for each of us. Bisgthemagish - I agree that the material released should be done by someone who is or has lived the content and had experienced levels of success in doing so in the real world. Not theory or concepts, but real world, time-tested experience. You can’t fake experience or success. Ken Northridge - you are correct and I agree, that he true value lies in the purchasers level of interest, understanding, adaptation and implementation - taking action after seeing the bigger picture and being excited to apply this to their business and immediately seeing how this can benefit them and their entertainment business. That’s where true value is determined. It shouldn’t matter if a program or coaching is $5000 if it can improve your business and increase your bottom line by $5000, $10,000 or whatever the long term benefits may be which could easily reach into tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for those that may apply it to their business properly. To me that’s a no-brainer but others don’t often see it that way. I’d gladly pay 10k for something that can make that back in a handful of bookings or within a year or two AND can directly benefit and increase my bottom line for years to come. Unfortunately, not everyone sees it that way, which is why I posed the question originally. This post just confirmed my original thoughts that it is impossible to create something that meets the needs and expectations of everyone. It also confirms that each of us have our own needs, interests and preferred methods of learning, and that some see and understand the value of such resources and would be willing to pay for such, while others would be more concerned about price point than content. Much to consider, but I want to thank everyone for their input. I’ll keep you posted. Here’s to a healthy and successful 2014 to everyone here! |
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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
Thank you Mindpro.
I for one always find your posts extremely helpful. There's no question that you are the master and we are your humble servants. Thanks, Gerry |
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magicofCurtis Inner circle Los Angeles 2545 Posts |
Great Mindpro for clearing that up.
So what is your real name and website info? Cheers
Curtis Lovell II
http://www.CurtisLovell.com http://www.MagicofCurtis.com www.facebook.com/curtislovellii Los Angeles, California - U.S.A. |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Perhaps it is easiest to post here where we left off:
Great to hear about your first two offerings. I know the book about maximizing press and media coverage is of particular interest to me. If you have the ambition, I think it would be great to ultimately see someone put together an entire curriculum on running an entertainment business that is structured like higher education. You would have core courses as well as a wide variety of additional courses to choose from to make up a complete program, yet not everyone would have the same completed courses (except perhaps the core courses). I would invision it being offered in a format similar to one who seeks an on line educational degree (although not as rigorous). There would be an ebook (or equivalent instructional material) and supportive webinars or video instruction to deepen the instruction and bring the book to life. One could choose individual courses as well, if desired. Once the structure was in place, you could seek additional "instructors" to widen the range of topics available. One thing I found to be lacking in the M.B.U. concept was a unifying entity. There was a great variety of subject matter, but no central axis from which everything offered attached to. I believe your effort in designing a university based approach would be much more successful at providing core course material as well as diverse courses that builds from a core foundational educational experience. One way to test this concept would be to offer a on line course to supplement your first two books. Perhaps 2, two hour classes that discuss the concepts, provide additional examples, illustrate examples of what does or does not work well (and explain why they are not ideal) and incorporate additional material that is not best suited for the written word and therefore not available in your books. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10585 Posts |
Yes, the first two releases were determined based on several criteria including these are among two of the areas I regularly get the most questions throughout the year, that seem to have the most misperceptions, that can directly result in income and bookings for your business and that are terribly misunderstood and not yet even realized by many performers. The Press & Media content is something that I have always believed to be something that can be utilized and enjoyed many nearly every single entertainer with a decent, well-rehearsed and performed show.
Also one of the other topics that came out of a recent survey I sent out to those on my coaching or emailing list was the topic of going from hobbyist to pro or from part-time to full-time. While this will be covered extensively in my full course, it may also very well be one of the next in this series of individual releases. I appreciate and really like your ideas in your last post. There is so much information, knowledge and experience I would like to get into and the entire project has become so vast. This combined with answers expressed by many here (which are all over the place in many cases), and some of the stuff that has happened here this past summer, has me now reconsidering the format and way I will be releasing this info. I like many of your ideas because it would allow me more direct, one on one interaction with those interested in truly learning this information. This is very similar to my coaching, mentoring and consultings, as I could work directly with everyone interactively through webinars as you suggest. I like it but would need to become more familiar with the webinar process and all involved. It is also though a huge undertaking but is very much along the lines of what I have been considering. I've never liked just releasing my information and just leaving it up to interpretation and implementation. This is why the coaching has worked out so well for many. One of the things I also received as ideas and responses from my e-mail survey of over 3,000 entertainers was to offer a more introductory coaching. More of a 30 or 45 day basic coaching at an affordable price. While I can see the benefits of this there is only so much that can be done in this short amount of time. I was surprised to hear this from so many. I think maybe they just want my evaluation of their current business or position and some basic guidance and direction. I will have to think more about this. This is kind of opposite from the normally detailed content I'm used to getting into. Your thoughts on the MBU things are very perceptive and I believe are shared by many from what I've been hearing and discussing with others. My efforts in this direction are entirely different. Mine are more entertainment business, not magician's business. Two hugely different things. Mine, like my coaching, is meant to break down your needs individually, identify very specifics needed and required for your individual goals and then create the all-encompassing plan and direction, step by step to achieve these needs and goals. They are results-driven. This is much different from the MBU approach. Theirs will likely be enjoyed by magicians, mine is for the much bigger business picture with a definite core and curriculum beginning with the foundational essentials (that most miss, fail or disregard miserably, from which everything else is then based upon). Magician's ideas of business tends to be more about improving what you are already doing, entertainment business is about mastering, growing and evolving beyond what you are currently doing to a much bigger, all-encompassing, more professional business picture. Some great food for thought. One thing I'm finding out is many in this community seem unwilling to pay for the value of this level of experience and/or are unwilling to make the commitment to execute as required. I don't believe I am willing to water down the content to make it general for everyone. I released a general course years ago, I really want to get into the meat and potatoes of entertainment business on levels that most never recognize or get to. As you may know I am quite active in other forums for other types of entertainers as well. It's interesting to see the responses and attitudes from those communities as compared to those here in the magic community. Very different in many ways on many levels. I find this quite interesting and always fascinating. Thanks for your thoughts. |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Quote:
One thing I'm finding out is many in this community seem unwilling to pay for the value of this level of experience and/or are unwilling to make the commitment to execute as required. Maybe it is a psychological thing. Many are willing to invest a great deal of time and money for a specific degree, but less willing to for what would seem to be more pertainent information, but without a degree. I would like to hear the opinions of others here who are (or are considering) going full time. Quote:
As you may know I am quite active in other forums for other types of entertainers as well. It's interesting to see the responses and attitudes from those communities as compared to those here in the magic community. Very different in many ways on many levels. I find this quite interesting and always fascinating. Out of curiosity, how do forums for other types of entertainers compare to the The Magic Café in terms of structure and content? I am amazed at how helpful this site has been for me, as a part timer just starting out. When I tell people outside of magic how much I learned from both direct and indirect assistance from a forum I belong to, they never have similar stories about that which they are pursuing. Perhaps your perspective about other forms of entertainers is formed because you may largely be interacting with a certain higher end subset of the group. There are tons of struggling musicians, comedians, jugglers, artists, actors etc. who have acquired skills, yet have no idea how to monetize their skill and would never invest in business strategies if they even knew they existed. To me, there seems to be more similarities than differences. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10585 Posts |
Other entertainer forums while each having some of their own nuances and weaknesses, overall compare differently here to the magic Café and the magic community.
In most other forums it is quite easy to tell the working pros from the amateurs, wannabees and up and comers. Since this divide is more obvious, there seems to be greater respect for the more experienced, working pros and elders. They seem more open and willing to learn. They tend to listen more than speak. Now of course this is not everybody but in overall tone and content. The magic community, as I have said before has some things unique and different from any other type of entertainers forums I participate in or am aware of. First and foremost is the issue of many magicians first become interested in magic through getting a magic kit or magic tricks as a kid. These are all self-working or easy to perform which creates and interest, appeal and allows them the spotlight of attention and in many cases popularity among family, friends, peers and individuality and separation from siblings. It also creates false belief and perception. Many become infatuated and captivated with magic and at some level begin to think they can do magic, want to pursue magic or somehow believe because they can execute a few tricks are somehow performers or could become entertainers based on doing and knowing some tricks. When they see a magician live or on t.v. the feel that is them. This leads to a whole way of thinking and perception that is quite different from most other entertainers. There are very few DJs that have wanted to be a DJ or think they are a DJ from simply playing their first record, CD or download. Same for comedy. While almost every kid learns and knows some jokes as a kid, few think of themselves as comedians or feel they could be a comedian as a profession. Same for singing Karaoke as kids, kids that like to draw would never this of themselves as caricature artists, and so on. The only thing that comes even remotely close is musicians that take music lessons for their instrument and fantasize about someday being a rock star or in a band, but even then they know and understand that they are not the same as such musicians and have a respect for those at such levels. It's a fantasy. They all understand there is a difference. You would never see a bio from most other types of entertainers saying "I've been a (magician) since I was 5 years old." This level of perception leads to many perceptions and things that continue within and throughout the magic community. Once a magician learns, knows or discovers how a trick is done, they somehow feel entitled, peers and somehow on the same level as those they learned it from or are more professional. No guitarist that has just discovered how to play Stairway To Heaven even remotely would be under the silly illusion that they are somehow peers with Jimmy Page or on the same plane as Zepplin. It really is crazy to those outside the community, even a joke. There are many other perceptions, actions and proceedings like these that are exclusive to the magic community not found in other forms of live entertainment or forums. I could go on and on but I won't, as it seems like I'm bashing the magic community every time I mention this when in reality I'm simply addressing your question and stating the many differences. Most other forums are less helpful and beneficial only because the working pros do not share their experience or secrets with everyone. They are pros operating on an advanced level and unless asked or they feel the need to share and help others, they keep their trade knowledge and advance skills to themselves. I do think this is one of the reasons I am so welcome in these communities due to my willingness to share based on my knowledge and experience. Many do not feel the same way which I respect, however I this has been my mission since I was searching for such unavailable information myself when I was just starting out. Several that took the time to share with me (large name celebrities that were my mentors) often would do so under the guise of me someday doing the same with others in my former same shoes. I always intended to keep this promise to myself and them. While there are similarities as you suggest, the differences are more evident and obvious. I think much of this actually works against the progress of most magicians, not all, as some can elevate above it to see a clearer picture, but most do not. I've also discussed this with many magicians that have gone to other entertainer forums and once again feel that they don't like it or fit in because the cloudy disillusion womb of the magic community isn't present. I think that is also why some have a hard time fitting in here because with the knowledge of this awareness they compare it to other forums which are much different with different operational and participatory tones. I also think this is a very large part of why most magicians seem to only listen to and want to learn from other magicians rather than other entertainers. This also leads to why most magicians seem to settle for being seen as a magician, rather than an entertainer. There's more, much more, but hopefully you get the picture. (charliecheckers quote) "Perhaps your perspective about other forms of entertainers is formed because you may largely be interacting with a certain higher end subset of the group" In actuality most I work with are not higher-end performers or levels. Most are part-timers, part-timers interested in becoming full-time, or beginning full-timers. I'd say 70% of those I work with are on this level, and the remaining 30% is divided between 25% higher-end pros and 5% amateurs wanting to become part-time professionals. Most are performers with little, no or confused business knowledge. While I enjoy working with more advanced entertainers on advanced levels, most are just local or regional level performers. I like showing them what they don't know or what they could know better. I also enjoy teaching more of the things most resources or working pros do not address or that has little or no information easily available. I also like individualized or small group learning and teachings. |
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