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Otto Leisner New user Norway 26 Posts |
Hello everybody, this is my first topic here. I have been doing magic active in a year, and what I would like to discuss with you is creating your own effects. I personally find it extremely hard to create good effects on my own, and I wonder if you have any ideas on this subject. If this topic has been discussed before, please leave a link so I can go there instead. Thanks for answers in advance.
I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me - Frank Castello
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Hello Otto~!
I think "we" need to define our terms! An EFFECT, is what the spectator sees (or THINKS that he sees). EFFECTS include: PRODUCTION, VANISH, TRANSPOSITION, TRANSFORMATION,RESTORATION, PENETRATION, ANIMATION, LEVITATION, etc. There are a few more,like MENTAL (psychometry, prediction, clairvoyancy, etc.) but. I think you get the idea. EFFECTS "violate" natural laws--and the natural laws have already been "invented"--so it's rather impossible to "invent" new EFFECTS! PROPS & SECRETS are the physical and/or mental "equipment" that a performer uses to PERFORM a TRICK. A TRICK (like music) only exists WHILE IT IS BEING PERFORMED. A TRICK is just a creative tool (like the artist's brush) that the performer uses to perform a TRICK, and hopefully create a MAGICAL experience. If the performer KEEPS THE EFFECT S I M P L E and the TRICK PERFORMANCE F U N, the odds are that "MAGIC" will happen in the spectator's MIND--and, it's usually only a momentary experience. ("MAGIC" does not happen in the performer's hands, or on the stage. It only happens in the spectator's mind! AND, the spectator must be willing to SUSPEND DISBELIEF!!! Therefore,you cannot buy a TRICK, and you cannot buy--or own--MAGIC. Further,despite Dr. A. M. Wilson's statement in the old SPHINX MAGAZINE: "Magic is an art that sometimes instructs, often amuses, but,always entertains." It is important for the magician to realize that MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING! (see above paragraph) IF the magician keeps the EFFECT SIMPLE and THE TRICK PERFORMANCE FUN, the spectator is likely to be ENTERTAINED! New songs are written every day, and, new TRICKS are invented "every day" also. But,old music is still enjoyed, and so sre old tricks! Some music has become classic, and some tricks, too. The PERFORMER (and, his PRESENTATION--in general, his keeping the PRESENTATION, SIMPLE & FUN) are what make the trick ENTERTAINING, and perhaps the EFFECT becomes a classic, too. May I suggest that you obtain, and STUDY, the TARBELL BOOKS! They were originally published in the 1920s, and were written for people just starting in magic. The tricks that he shares, are still good. (I use many of them in my own show, and I was booked "solid" for almost fifty years. Much of the "patter" that Tarbell wrote, is now passe, but the philosophy has not changed. If you are seriously interested in performing, you need to understand the fundamentals! I'll close this "sermon" with a quote from Alexander Pope: "...A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Drink deep or not at all, from the Pyrhean Spring. There, shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, while drinking largely, sobers us again." Best wishes! Dick Oslund Sneaky, underhanded, devious, and surreptitious itinerant mountebanc
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Otto Leisner New user Norway 26 Posts |
Thank you very much Dick Oslund, I will look into the Tarbell books. Thank you for educating me in the artform.
I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me - Frank Castello
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Hey Otto~!We just celebrated Syttende Mai! (Sorry, my Norge is only 'so so'!
My paternal grandfather was from Sweden, and paternal grandmother was from Norway. --When they "came over" (late 1800s) they wanted to learn (American) English! All I learned was "Please" and "Thank you"!!! If I was helpful, I'm happpy. I didn't start out to "preach" such a long sermon, but, in order to make things clear, it's necessary to tell the "whole story"! When I was a teen ager in the '40s, my mentor was a professional magician. Almost his whole show was from the Tarbell course! The original course was a mail order "correspondence" course! My mentor, Stuart Ross had been involved in promoting and selling the course. You can buy the 7 volumes one book at a time. BTW, It's not necessary to purchase NEW copies. Check AMAZON, etc. for used books. I believe that you can read it FREE via computer. --I don't know how you arrange that, but, someone will know. Yr's, 'til the deck is shuffled! Dick
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Aus Special user Australia 996 Posts |
Hey Otto
Creating in magic is a area that interests me greatly. I personally find creating in the area of presentation and the theatrical aspects of magic to be my focus and joy. The thing about creativity in magic is it's very difficult to create something new in a complete sense as magic has been around a very long time and much that could be created has been created. In saying that, I'm not saying it's impossible to create something completely new, just that this is a rarity these days. What is more common however is creativity in magic based on inspiration and modification on existing ideas and concepts. This is why I support Dick Oslund in encouraging you to study whats already out there to establish a base level of understanding and knowledge. Once you have this understanding and knowledge you will have a springboard to which your creativity can flourish. To illustrate, magic has already established base categories that all effects fits under which are 19 effects, so without even knowing what your going to create we know it's going to be one, two or more of these categories combined that will define your creation. So whats left then is really how you modify and combine these ideas which are usually by asking yourself these questions: Can I Substitute something? Can I combine it with something else? Can I adapt something to it? Can I modify or magnify it? Can I put it to some other use? Can I Eliminate something? Can I reverse or Rearrange it? I could write a whole article on each of these questions and how to apply and implement them but I think this basic outline should be enough for you to ponder for now. Go forth and learn my friend. Magically Aus |
RobertlewisIR Veteran user Colorado 367 Posts |
It's not a difficult thing to do, but it doesn't come naturally. It's a skill developed over time. I think the best advice is to read a lot. You should know as much as possible. First, you should know as much magic as possible. That means you should understand a lot of tricks (that's not to say you want to actually perform all of them, but you ought to know a lot of them because knowing your history is important). It also means you should know something about magic history and theory. You needn't become a world-class expert before even trying to invent, but the more you do, the better you're going to become. Second, you should know things outside of magic, because it's often outside of magic from which one gets inspiration. Sometimes you learn a piece of history and get an idea for a magic presentation about those events. Sometimes you read about a piece of technology that would make an effect possible. Lots of different ideas.
Then, what you can do (or at least what I do) is to play around with stuff. Keep a notebook of ideas, and just play with things. Sometimes you'll be working on a trick and come up with a new way of doing it. Sometimes you'll come up with something entirely new. Just write it all down. Most of it will be garbage, so the next skill to develop is to learn how to pick out the best stuff and polish it. It's a long process, and everyone works a little differently. But keep working at it, and eventually, you'll come up with good stuff. Whatever you do, though, don't neglect your history. A lot of young magicians these days seem only to be interested in what's new, but I'll tell you, we have records of magic tricks going back at least 4,000 years or so, and those guys were really, really smart. Even when we're creating our own stuff, we can learn a lot by studying what they did and how they approached their problems.
~Bob
---------- Last night, I dreamed I ate the world's largest marshmallow. When I woke up, the pillow was gone. |
Vangel New user 26 Posts |
Creativity and imagination helps. I've found that thinking of impossible ideas help to come with the initial idea.
For the performance itself, I normally use the actual objects/props and act out the scenario then work my way from there to modify objects and movements. This way it begins as simple as possible and slowly expands out to more and more complicated solutions rather than jumping into a complex solution without thinking of the basics. For me I just watch life in general and ask "what if…" |
Aus Special user Australia 996 Posts |
Just one more thing Otto that I would like to mention is that I find creativity in a methodological and mechanical sense in constructing effects to be more linear then creating presentation and theatrical aspects of effects. This is part of the reason why I relish this aspect more then any other as it's endless in the amount of permutations one can create where on the other hand talking in terms of method and mechanics can have more definable perimeters as outlined in my first post.
That's not to say one aspect in creativity is better then the other it's just that each is different and offers their own pros and cons. The main issue I have with creativity as a abstract concept thrown around in the magic community is the undefinable nature that the word seems to bring by people that try to explain it. One could argue that creativity by it's very nature should't be shackled by rules and regulations which would stifle the creative process, and to that I would agree to a point. However to give creativity to much freedom brings it's own issues as well, notably of them being the paradox of choice. How can choice be a problem, after all selection is the yardstick of progress and separates planned economies and the stone age. Yes abundance makes you have a more broad pool of ideas to draw upon but also has the risk of creating analysis paralysis. How can you be sure you are making the right choice when 200 options surround and confound you? The answer is: you cannot. The more choice you have, the more unsure and dissatisfied you will be. So whats the answer? Write down what you hope to achieve in your creative process and stick rigidly to that no matter what. Those guidelines will create focus to your creativity and be the compass that will always point north no matter how rocky the terrain gets. You will get many here offering their own perspective on how they exercise creativity, take those ideas and use them but always maintain a focus. Magically Aus |
RobertlewisIR Veteran user Colorado 367 Posts |
Another thing to remember when coming up with new magic is that you really can do whatever you want, when you realize that you don't actually need to do anything. You just need to *appear* to do something. So if you want to make New York vanish, or pull a car out of your pocket, it's perfectly possible. It's a challenge (in those cases, a really big challenge), but there's no reason it can't be done.
~Bob
---------- Last night, I dreamed I ate the world's largest marshmallow. When I woke up, the pillow was gone. |
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I have created hundreds of effects over the years (to embrace pops, stories, presentation themes, complete routines, sleights, etc) FEW of these are any value except to myself! Why?
Performance magic is a form of communication with a selected audience for an agreed objective and limiting environment. Incredible effects for one venue "fail" in another. Your focus on creativity can be on adapting traditional/proven effects to the unique conditions of your personal performance. If you wish to "invent" things for a commercial reason it is a different track all together. However, creativity in any form is its own reward - so make the most of it. I derive a greater thrill from having someone else perform one of my effects that performing it myself, but have found that few out there are willing to do the work to perform it properly. Sigh! Big deal! My children rarely talk to me either. The point is that you must be clear on what you expect for "being creative." I agree with most of what Dick offered above (and request permission to reproduce) - yet would add that this type of creativity support lends itself to "derivative creativity," - on the assumption that any effect is simply a modification of what came before. You can also have "non-derivative creativity" in which you find and object, play with it and allow its own unique possibilities to evolve. After your create an exciting effect you may find it was also "created" by someone else years ago. The thrill may be yours while the ability to market it is not. I suggest both paths. Study Tarbell for a while, then just "mess around" with no goal of ever performing what you "Create." Welcome and enjoy the journey.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
Otto Leisner New user Norway 26 Posts |
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On May 19, 2014, Dick Oslund wrote: I am happy to hear that you celebrated syttende mai, it is a very beautiful day. I have found: The original course in magic by Harlan Tarbell.pdf and I have already briefly started. Thanks once again for your tips and recommendations , and I am now interested in hearing what Tarbell has to offer.
I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me - Frank Castello
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Otto Leisner New user Norway 26 Posts |
Thanks for helpful tips everyone. It is great to have experienced magicians pushing me in the right direction! It is certainly appreciated.
I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me - Frank Castello
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MRSharpe Special user Never a dull moment with 940 Posts |
If you are referring to working method, that can be fairly easy to come up with if you don't have some experience of what has already been done. Experience provides you with a starting point. Often, a standard method, utility device or gimmick may be that answer. Sometimes an old method from another branch of magic can be reapplied. I've done that in the past by applying the working method of a stage illusion to a parlor prop I needed that did not yet exist. It is also an advantage to have the ability for thinking out side the box. You can often spot something on TV or in a store that will inspire a working method. That's simple insight, but it's difficult to force oneself to do this. You may just end up with a method waiting on an effect. And there are sleights and moves with normal objects waiting to be discovered. I done this in the past. For example I have an original ring and rope penetration I came up with years ago simply by playing around with the two props. It happened at 3:00 AM and surprised me. When I woke up next morning I couldn't do the move again and hadn't made notes. It took me several days to rediscover my discovery, so now I always keep a notebook handy.
Just a few points and I may come up with some more. In the meantime, read as many magic books as you can to learn about as many standard working methods as you can find in those books and just experiment. But, it's good to have a goal in mind so you are working toward something instead of simply fiddling around with props.
Custom Props Designer and Fabricator as well as Performer from Indiana, USA
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
First, I would like to thank AUS for supporting my suggestion that Otto should study Tarbell. Otto is just beginning, and, needs to learn the fundamentals first! Further studies will necessarily follow. LEARNING IS AN ACTIVE, NOT PASSIVE PROCESS. (Neither I, nor anyone else can really TEACH someone skilla or knowledge. I, or anyone, can only help the learner, LEARN. AND, WHEN HE IS THROUGH LEARNING,HE IS THROUGH!
IS I am not going to reprint all of the posts above, It is not a long thread. I have read the posts, and nowhere can I find anyone talking about NEW EFFECTS. There are many suggestions and comments about ORIGINALITY in PRESENTATION, METHODS, etc. I defined terms in my post. I will amend the second sentence in the fourth paragraph: "A TRICK IS A CREATIVE TOOL (LIKE THE ARTIST'S BRUSH)THAT THE PERFORMER USES TO, HOPEFULLY PRODUCE A MAGICAL EXPERIENCE." Friend Funsway--you are welcome to quote my post, but please amend that second sentence in paragraph four. (OMIT "...perform a trick, and..." also CHANGE "..."create" to "produce..." I am not writing this "rebuttal" to hurt anyone's feelings. I LISTED EFFECTS in my second paragraph. I believe thst the "confusion" is caused by not understanding basic definitions. This may help clarify: I file instruction sheets under those headings. There are a few props and/or secrets that can accomplish more than one effect. For example, I list items like egg bags (can be used to produce or vanish) under COMBINATIONS. Props like Trouble Wit and Chapeau Felt are filed under NOVELTY. INERTIA (the eggs, glasses, and tray ) is filed under JUGGLING. Props like breakaway fans, and wands, could, I suppose be filed under RESTORATION, but I choose to file them under COMEDY GAGS. Following a suggestion made by Bill Hegbli: Props used in my working act, have duplicate instructions filed in a case that is stored with the working act props. Props in my "collectibles" have instructions filed with them.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Aus Special user Australia 996 Posts |
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On May 21, 2014, Dick Oslund wrote: Dick I understand the importance of defining the terms outlined in your first post and impressing those onto the new guy but I feel it would be amiss of us to not out line the other cohesive elements that are part of the creative process. After all if you don't know better you can't do better, and we wont this guy stepping out on the right foot don't we? Having said that, if semantics are important, so should the definition of what a NEW EFFECT should be,and what are the parameters of what constitutes a new effect in the magic environment, which was the aim of my first post and further defined more eloquently with Funway's definitions of "derivative creativity" and "non-derivative creativity". Although Funway talks in terms of creativity I feel his definitions equally apply to effects in my opinion, with derivative base effects being more common then non-derivative ones in my experience. Having said that what has been missing from this discussion is practical information on how to formulate new effects, to remedy that I offer this exercise for Otto if he is still around. The 19 effects that I alluded to in my first post are as follows: 1. Production (appearance, creation, multiplication) 2. Vanish (disappearance obliteration) 3. Transposition (change in location) 4. Transformation (change in appearance, character or identity) 5. Penetration (one solid through another) 6. Restoration (making the destroyed whole) 7. Animation (movement imparted to the inanimate) 8. Anti-Gravity (Levitation and change in weight) 9. Attraction (mysterious adhesion) 10. Sympathetic reaction (sympathetic response) 11. Invulnerability (injury proof) 12. Physical anomaly (contradictions, abnormalities, freaks) 13. Spectator failure (magicians’ challenge) 14. Control (mind over the inanimate) 15. Identification (special discovery) 16. Thought reading (mental perception, mind reading) 17. Thought transmission (thought projection and transference) 18. Prediction (foretelling the future) 19. Extra-Sensorial perception (unusual perception, other than mind) These are taken from Dariel Fitzkee and his book The Trick Brain and are systematic of whats possible in terms of effects. Now write on 19 slips of paper each of the above effect classifications and put them into a bowl. Next take another 19 slips and write a random everyday object on each of those and place them into another bowl. Now take a slip from the effect bowl then a slip from the item bowl and think out how you could create an effect of the type on the effect slip with the item on the item slip. We are not talking methods yet, just effects, so write them down, no matter how outlandish they seem. As your knowledge grows with methods you'll eventually able to think about how to achieve these effects and whats plausible. That's a rather straightforward and clinical approach but it gets the ball rolling. If you wont to get more involved with effect creation then look into these texts: Twelve Steps to Creative Magic by Joe Bruno: http://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=53067 Hat System by Marc Oberon: http://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=51061 The Trick Brain by Dariel Fitzkee: http://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=37873 Once you have a foundation of study of Tarbell and other resources, these books will make your capability of creating effects better and more focused. Magically Aus |
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I have always thought his list to be partially incomplete re: #3
the "change of location" my be a "Transportation" of an object from one place to another or a "Transposition" in which two object switch places -- even if one is solid and the other an "empty space." The difference is in Expectation vs. Anticipation and Surprise vs. Astonishment. More excitingly for me, a Transportation can take place based on Inference or Implication alone. A hand being "empty" is different from a hand "holding nothing," the former embracing the Implication that an object was there previously or soon will be. Each has its place in effect orchestration and creation. The point being that "creating a new magic effect" must focus more on how "magic" is the hero vs. some new sleight or gimmick or result. From my experience, several of the apparent results on the list above must occur in combination, or steps taken to eliminate some from the spectator's list of possibilities. For example: Your right hand holds a coin while the left hand appears to hold nothing. Both are closed. Upon opening the coin is found in the left hand and the right hand is empty. This could be explained in several ways -- 1) the coin travel up your sleeve and down the other arm (Animation) 2) the coin invisibly flew one hand to the other (Transportation) 3) the coins quality of "being" changed from one hand to the other (Transposition) 4) the coin vanished from one hand and another coin was produced in the other (Vanish/Production) 5) one coin became invisible while a different coin in the left hand became visible (Transformation) The scripting of each approach could be considered "creativity" - but from the spectator's point of view they are the same effect. In most presentations you desire the spectator be believe in 2 or 3 and never 4. You accomplish this by balancing Anticipation and Expectation in subtle ways, e.g. eye movement, hand and shoulder positioning, finger wiggles. so what! The study of Tarbell as a prequel to creating a new effect is not to understand the great effects that have some before as building blocks, but to understand why some action seem magical and other just puzzles or confusing. It is easy to create a new "trick" or a new "story." Creating anew "magic effect" is another matter. In a magic performance your objective should be to create the conditions under which whatever you do seems to be magic. If the audience Expects magic to occur, follows your guidance as to what and where it will occur (Anticipation) and automatically changes any Surprise or Confirmation to "Wow - that was magic!" - then you will have created something extraordinary. (Affect as well as Effect)
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
A different creation --
A FINE CHOICE I often play at coins in the before moments, you know .. before I have to call up the sun and teach the grass to sing – when others are asleep and thoughts of breakfast the only distraction. I fumbled through moves and sleights with reluctant coins and stiffened joints, and perceived a faint whisper from near my third eye. “You seem to wish for a metal disk to cease to be, or to be invisible for a whimper of time, or to be hither when by right ‘tis left secure!” “I guess this is true,” I mused, while failing again a Classic Palm. “Choose one – and I will make it so,” snorted my friend Epalgasis, who you may perceive as a horse, or might have as a child. Then HeShe portaled away that I might ponder such a gift. If I, as a performing conjuror, could actually cause a single coin to be no more, or lay unperceived on my open hand, or be transported to another place – which would I choose? and with the choosing, which effects would I select to coax magic from my audience, without their knowing too much of why and when? How would my hands move or stay? When would I reveal the shift from anticipation to surprise? To appear natural is a goal, of course – but what would not be natural to me if I were to accept this gift – yet, in being more magical would make of my other tricks something less? Which would you choose – or none at all?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
Aus Special user Australia 996 Posts |
Quote:
On May 22, 2014, funsway wrote: For Otto's purpose I think what we have already suggested is enough, the guy needs to walk before he can run and getting into deep theoretical arguments only cloud the situation and verge on analysis paralysis which is what I warned him about in my second post. In saying that Funsway I don't for a moment take way from your argument, just think that isn't what he needs right now. The guys relativity new and needs to grasp the fundamentals before more detailed exploration can begin. However for a theoretical discussion between ourselves I would make these points. Any ambiguity in an effect that could be psychologically misinterpreted by the spectator is a direct fault of the performer. It is his job to emphasize whats important and give context to his performance so the spectator knows what he is seeing, as Dai Vernon once said confusion isn't magic and to that I agree completely. When talking about effects one could argue there is a Physical effect we are trying to portray and a psychological effect we are trying to impress on the spectators. The physical effect needs to defined and contextualized so it's understood and is clear where psychological effects such as anticipation,surprise etc are to be felt and experienced and should support the physical effect. For Otto however what Physical effects are possible should be his first focus. Magically Aus |
Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
THANK YOU! AUS!!! and, FUNSWAY!!!
I didn't have my copy of Fitzkee's "Trick Brain" handdy when I wrote. (I have a "habit" of loaning books to young friends who either can't afford them (collector prices!) or can't find an available copy.) So, my ancient brain could not recall the rest of the list in "TB". And, since I don't do much in the area of mentalism, I file anything related to mentalish in one "pile"! (same as "card tricks"!) I did present some mental magic in my school and college programs about 30 years ago. It played "strong"! In fact, it played too strong! One college student referred to it as a "religious experience"! I cut it from the program. We still have a bit of confusion over the definiion of "effect", but, you and Funsway have both contributed much to the discussion. Jay Marshall and I were discussing a "fine point" one day, and he said, "I asked a man what time it was, and he gave me a 30 minute lesson in how to make a clock!" I certainly don't want "that" to happen here! --especially, I don't want to frighten young Otto away!!! Again, thanks for your very erudite contributions. I hope we haven't gotten too "deep", and frightened young Otto away. O P.S. "The effect is more important than the method!"
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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DaveGripenwaldt Elite user 487 Posts |
You already have more terrific input to digest than you probably need...but hey, you asked.
The reader's digest version of my answer would be: 1. Learn. The more you know about what has been done before, the more you will have to draw on to create. 2. Know yourself. A clear-eyed understanding of how you come across as a person and a performer will help inform your creative decisions and keep you from doing and creating material that doesn't fit you well. If no one laughs when you tell jokes, don't go for funny. If you look 14, don't try to come across as a suave world travelor. Friendly, dramatic, silly. intense, comanding, light, story teller, quiet...all are perfromace styles and choices you can make as you learn how you come across to people. And from there you can create materail that fits. We can talk about how to "create original materail" at another time. |
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