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Mike Ince Inner circle 2041 Posts |
Let's say you're leading a childrens' Sunday School class through a lesson about Jonah, for example. You come here and ask people in the Good News forum for a good magical illustration that might help you tell the story?
My first thought is, "why do you feel the need for a magic trick to illustrate how God dealt with Jonah?" My second thought is, "why are you telling the story of Jonah in the first place?" Do you believe God actually calmed the raging sea the moment the ship's crew threw Jonah into the water? He did, and the sailors worshiped God. It happened. Do you believe God made a fish that could swallow a man and keep him alive for three days? Perhaps Jonah died in the fish then God brought him back after three days. Maybe God merely kept Jonah in stasis somehow, and miraculously gave him oxygen to survive in the belly of the fish or sea creature, whatever it was. It happened, and however God did it, it was and is amazing. Jonah refused to obey, and God disciplined him. God appointed a fish to swallow Jonah and vomit him up on the shore. He later appointed a worm to chew through Jonah's comforting plant. He appointed many things, and that shows God's sovereignty. Between the miracles, His sovereignty, His disciplining Jonah, the repentance of Ninevah, and God's compassion for the worst of sinners, there's a lot to learn from the events surrounding Jonah. It's a rich story that also foreshadowed Christ's resurrection. How is sharing what God did not amazing enough for you? Will you really help the story along by vanishing a "Jonah" handkerchief and reproducing it in a change bag? ENTHUSIASM AND CONVICTION "If I believe me, you have no choice." - Morgan Freeman Do you believe the scripture you're illustrating (in this case, the account of Jonah) is factual? If you do, your awe (not pretended awe) will affect your listeners. Your conviction, your sense of wonder, will translate and overcome them as well. Adding a cute trick with brightly colored "kid friendly" prop gives me the sense you're not giving proper weight to the Word of God as you speak it. It makes me think you're afraid to present bare Scripture. Why could that be? "I'm afraid the kids will be bored when I tell the story." Then you aren't telling it right. Might your using a silk handkerchief with a cartoon picture of a whale on it or using a garish magic box indicate a desperation to add wonder to the telling of a story you're not sure you believe yourself, or a story you feel disconnected from? Maybe I'm not being fair to everyone. Maybe your group of kids are so ADHD they wouldn't pay attention for over a minute if they saw Jonah get swallowed and regurgitated before their eyes, and you're doing magic and trying everything to keep their attention. I believe God wants us to have fun. I know ministers want children to look forward to church, and that means not sitting them down and brow-beating them with Bible stories they don't want to hear. I remember being a kid in church, and I remember not wanting to hear Bible stories. Know what I did want to hear? Answers to my questions about God like, "Where did God come from?" (a question I finally found answers for in my 20's) I'm having Sunday School flashbacks, now. Bible lessons felt like slow torture at times, especially when teachers used their patronizing "talk slowly and expressively to the idiot children" voices instead of using everyday conversational tones. Maybe you think a story like the account of Jonah, if taken at face value, is a little scary. Maybe you're afraid of showing children that God IS scary in His power and fury. Why wouldn't you want children to be afraid of God's power, his wrath, or His discipline? "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." The sailors who threw Jonah over were terrified. They wouldn't have told you anything about that moment was cute. It affected them, and they worshiped. I wonder if it's appropriate to be afraid to present God in all His facets to children? The bottom line is this: God is holy. He is just, and we deserve punishment. He is terrifying in His wrath. He is angry with the wicked every day. He is also patient, gracious, compassionate, and doesn't treat believers as their sins deserve. The grand themes of Scripture like God's holiness, our rebellion, God's patience, His sacrifice, His final judgment and the coming Kingdom are the weightiest things you will ever communicate to anyone. How could using a goofy, cartoon-illustrated handkerchief and a Mak Magic prop ever approach giving proper weight to God's glory? Be confident when the Word of God is on your lips. It will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent. The way you communicate the truth of God should reflect that you take it very, very seriously. I wish cutesy gospel magic would cease to exist. The gospel isn't cute. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
Gospel magic can be cutesy, but doesn't have to be.
The same can said of the use of puppets, acting, music and story telling. As someone who has been sharing with the arts for several years, I still have much to learn. My programs can go from cutesy to intense, from laughter to tears. The Bible isn't PG, and I share my testimony and lessons in church at the age & emotional level of the group watching learning. This Sunday, I will share a lesson on Spiritual Fitness. Last week a colleague shared on physical fitness, I will be sharing on mental fitness. I always pray and ask for prayer for my preparation and before I share. May the Lord give you peace in this and other areas, beyond our human understanding. Love & prayers... Shalom, Brother Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
Russo Inner circle So.California / Centl.Florida / retired Florida 1165 Posts |
Sorry I must comment on this - for - you must have had a HELL FIRE Relegious upbringing, being so judgemental and wrathful - Our HEAVENLY Father is Loving & Gracious - Forgiving - but EXPECTS- RESPECT -NOT FEAR - Fun ways to bring our LORD to Children using Illusion(not claiming MAGIC)
Gospel ILLUSTRATION - Puppets - Flannel Board - etc. is GREAT. |
harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
Perhaps Jonah thought he knew better than God (sometimes I have been guilty of that)
He didn't want to have the city saved. The big I (as in I want) or EGO (edging God out) can happen in many ways. Yes I believe the Bible. Do I need magic in my presentations? No Do I sometimes use it? Yes Do I use more words and less props than I did 30 years ago. Yes Do I have ADHD. (yes..self diagnosis...) My God is loving ...forgiving....and yes... it is good to Fear my Awesome HOLY HOLY HOLY God. In Church I sometimes I feel warm and fuzzy (cutesy?) Sometimes it is more like a conviction. Love and prayers.. Shalom brother Harris still 2 old to know everything..
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
Mike Ince Inner circle 2041 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 15, 2015, Harris wrote: That's a sensible approach. Thanks for the rest of your comments, too. Quote:
On Jan 15, 2015, Russo wrote: I didn't have a hell fire religious upbringing. I've been spending time reading the reactions of people in Scripture who encountered God in His holiness. They didn't dance for Him.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
Many did not want to answer or dance. Some even hid.
Sometimes we can even hide in church. I was raised in the Old Testament. With Orthodox Jewish Grandparents. love and prayers Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
GlenD Inner circle LosAngeles, Ca 1293 Posts |
I don't think anyone teaches a Sunday school class and uses an effect to illustrate EVERYTHING said or read from the Bible. If we are doing a set timed performance, of any kind, then the way in which we (as magicians/gospel magic performers) engage our audience is appropriate for what is expected. If we are in a position to teach or lead a group of some kind then I would think more speaking and discussion would be appropriate.
Is a magic effect necessary to understand or share God's word? Of course not. Does one want to argue that it is never necessary and shouldn't be done, then that leads down towards legalism IMO. I find that there is freedom in Christ and variety in all created things. It's all very lovely and we make it ugly when we try to project, from our finitely limited personal understanding and experiences, onto others. I don't mean to imply that there is not absolute truth, God's word is exactly that, but we mess things up so easily even when we think our motivations are pure. But by all means let The Word be shared, through actions, speech, gospel illustrations, or sometimes through difficult times when we are tested and have opportunities to be the strongest witness for Him. Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin
"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!) |
Craig Logan Special user Michigan 541 Posts |
I have decided to separate the magic and the message. I have found that one of the two typically suffer when joined too closely, so I have been using magic as a warm-up intro to get the brain flowing and everybody ready to focus. I never want my magic to trump or stamp out the Word of God.
"A wizard is not to be made in a day." -Professor Hoffmann (Modern Magic)
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
When we truly understand freedom in Christ we would understand that being obedient to God is not legalism. When we submit to God it's not legalism. When we become more Christ like we will put more of the worldly things aside. That's not being legalistic, it's spiritual growth resulting from obedience and fear of our Lord. We were once slaves of this world, but God broke those chains to set us free, but also bought and paid for us by his blood. We are no longer slaves of this world but slaves to God.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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John Long Inner circle New Jersey 2826 Posts |
Mike:
No. Emphatically no. In the context of a church gathering: It is my opinion that, at least for adults, magic weakens, and potentially trivializes the message. For children however, I can accept that magic can be a vehicle to get children's attention, to tell a story, and to illustrate some truth. But do I need it to teach?, No. Emphatically no. In the context of witnessing: I have used magic to get people's attention, and then may use it to present a gospel message. But do I need it?, No. Emphatically no. Magic can still weaken or trivialize the message, and I prefer to put the "magic" aside as soon as I can, and just talk out of my conviction of the truth. So why use magic at all? Simply, I consider a weaken message better than none. But do I need magic to witness, No. Emphatically no. John R. Long
Breathtaking Magic;
Not Breath Taking |
harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
In both my Church and non church shows, I use less props than I did starting out
Also when starting I was talking general spirituality, rather than using God's word and my testimony. Love and prayers brother Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
Jesus used many parables and illustrations, as do most preachers today. If a magic trick will serve as an illustration to enhance the presentation of the message, why not?
But I think that's the problem many gospel magic performers face - the magic and performance overshadow the gospel. The message is reduced to just a vehicle to perform magic, rather than the message riding a bit higher and clearer because of your visual illustration. Just my thoughts. Ed |
katyannmarie New user 15 Posts |
Just my two cents because it's an interesting topic.
Are any of the performing arts necessary? Absolutely not. That being said, any and all of the performing arts can be a tool. As for kids who have grown up in church, whatever methods for teaching have been pathetically ineffective. Some know a lot of Bible stories, but they can't give one reason why they believe the Bible, or even any stories in it, are true. That leads to the next issue. Because they don't really know if the Bible is true, it has no real impact on their lives. Many don't actually do any of the things the Bible suggests. Some do the things the Bible suggests, but for some, it's because they think God will do something horrible to them if they step out of line. Others think it's their parents who will do something horrible to them. Either way, they are miserable. At least they command a bit more respect than the kids who just don't bother. Lest you think I'm picking on church kids, I'm not. Kids who don't go to church haven't thought through the implications of humanism, atheism, or agnosticism either. The point is, church kids who don't know if the Bible is true grow up to become church attending adults who don't really believe the Bible is true and have no impact on anyone, except for comic relief for others. The question isn't magic or not. The question is whether you believe the Bible is true or not, and the implications either way. |
Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Hi Mike,
Brilliant question and I beg the indulgence of all here because to give you my answer I have to answer from the ancient Christian perspective, i.e, The Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church. [DISCLAIMER: I have been accused in the past of trying to proselytize. That is NOT my intention. The Orthodox do NOT proselytize]. I do not perform Gospel magic because my faith holds that only a priest or bishop can properly and this is key, authoritatively teach. [Again ANOTHER disclaimer: I am not implying that I am "right" only what my faith believes is right for its adherents]. We believe that because what is taught is the continuation of Holy Tradition from Christ to His Apostles, to their disciples and on to the present day. Since we reject sola scriptura, we ALSO reject "personal" interpretations of Scripture or any embellishments. In fact, this is reflected in the way our "hymns" and prayers are chanted. The different tones utilized are clearly laid out and no deviation from them is permitted so that we do not attempt to add to God's teaching. From that perspective, not only do I not NEED magic or mentalism to formally "teach" Scripture, I am forbidden rightly to do so. It's interesting to note that in the earliest days of Christianity there were proscriptions against MANY forms of entertainment. It took a little while but the Church Fathers who received their instruction from the Holy Apostles revised those proscriptions. Dancing, singing, acting, and magic are fine so long as the performances are not an affront to God or may tempt the performer or audience to sin or to believe that in the case of magic, what is accomplished is done so by means other than natural. From an educator's standpoint, I can certainly understand using magic to illustrate difficult points. When I am teaching a young'un about the distances between stars or galaxies, I illustrate by talking about time machines. With enthusiasm I impart the truth that when one looks at a star or a galaxy, one is looking back in time. Kids LOVE this idea. I bring it home for them by explaining that the heat they feel from the Sun and the light it radiates comes from the Sun as it was 8 and a half minutes in the past and if it were to vanish, we would not "know" for 8.5 minutes. The same is true for History. Many kids are taught History incorrectly. They are forced to learn exact dates to the point of sheer boredom. My approach - and the approach of many educators at all levels is to present History as the "story of everything." It truly is the greatest novel still being written. So my approach is to teach History from the perspective of a great work of literary art and have my charges imagine they are one of the principal characters in the plot. I ask them to think of possible solutions that their character faced and to keep those solutions historically accurate. Now History becomes something exciting because people love stories and a happy side effect is that dates are remembered not as dry isolated facts, but important parts of a grand narrative. But, such an approach I believe is NOT appropriate for teaching Holy Writ. I could never imagine asking a Sunday School student to take the part of St. Joseph and ask him to act out how St. Joseph might have handled the news that the Virgin Mary was with child! Truth be told, I feel that talking WITH younger children in terms they can understand while preserving the purity - the Truth of the Message - is essential. As has been noted, magic at times seems to overshadow the Message. While I do not perform Gospel magic, I have witnessed many performances of it in various Protestant settings and I felt as though I was at a magic show that just happened to have Jesus peppered here and there. Working in a magic shop, I have seen those flaming "bibles" and I find them to be distasteful at best and an affront to Holy Writ at worst. Additionally, I do not believe it is appropriate to represent the Holy Spirit as a dove on a silk that is vanished and reappears. Considering that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter who is with us always, it seems to me at least that "magic" with the Holy Spirit comes dangerously close to the one sin that Christ taught is unforgivable, namely, blasphemy of The Holy Spirit. What is interesting to note however is the Eastern Orthodox use of icons. Most people believe these to be mere decoration or "graven images." They are in fact neither. They actually served a very pragmatic purpose in the centuries before the invention of the printing press. People didn't have Bibles - well, that's not precisely accurate as clergy and royalty would have had manuscripts. But for the non-royal/rich believer, icons served to illustrate what the priest or bishop was explaining in the homily. They also reinforce the ancient Christian understanding that worship of God in Heaven and on Earth occurs simultaneously. If you look at an Orthodox icon, you'll notice that the perspective is reversed. This isn't because the artists (iconographers are actually called hagiographers meaning "writers of wisdom" - icons are not "painted works of art" but written wisdom handed down through Holy Tradition as understood by St. Paul) - weren't schooled in perspective techniques. Rather, the reversed perspective represents the Reality of the Church Eternal, i.e, in Heaven, looking at the Church Militant, i.e, our Earthy worship thus again conveying the Truth that the worship of God is not separate. Now, all of that said, is it appropriate to use magic as a parent to teach informally the central themes of our Lord's teaching such as love, faith, hope, and forgiveness? Absolutely but only after reviewing what I intend to do with my priest. But no, magic is not NEEDED at all. What IS needed and what must always have prime focus is that which we have been taught both in epistle and spoken word. (2 Thessalonians 2:15) I hope that I was clear and did not offend anyone. Frequently, the Orthodox Christian perspective differs from Western Christian views, and, as I seem to be the only Orthodox Christian to pop in here, I feel it is appropriate to answer from the Eastern perspective. It is not a judgment on others, merely the Truth as expressed by the other branch of Christianity that is little known or understood in the West. +Humbly in Christ, Vlad |
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