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JoeJoe Inner circle Myrtle Beach 1915 Posts |
As usual I am confused by all the "expert" advice ... from a layman's perspective, there is absolutely no difference between a chopped cup and a regular cup so I fail to see how the routine or the moves or the tempo are of any importance to the original question (other than to put a limitation in place that doesn't need to exist).
ColtonRaelund: the drawback on a combo set is the chopped cup will weight more than the others so you can't hand out all three for examination to the same person - it only becomes an issue if someone comes up to the table after the show and decides to examine the cups on their own. Other than that, I don't like having one heavy cup - it throws me off when flipping a cup in the air and catching it in the other cups (unbalanced, bottom heavy). One other issue: if you do both a cups routine and a chop routine, you can do both routines with three cups instead of carrying four. The drawback to this is you have to figure out which cup is the chop when you need it, something that would cause a minor snag in my show ... nothing major, but I did notice I had to fumble with the cups looking for the chop. I had considered getting three three chop cups instead of a combo set, but didn't like the price range. Still an option you may want to consider. -JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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kentfgunn Inner circle Merritt Island FL 1639 Posts |
Joe,
The set I have, has three cups that all weigh the same and are examinable. I believe a chopped set allows many moves that greatly enhance a routine. They impose zero limitations and allow for a far expanded set of options. Proper set up and rehearsal will completely eliminate any fumbling. |
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ColtonRaelund Regular user COLTON ZOROASTER RAELUND 116 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 16, 2016, ZachDavenport wrote: This is, in my opinion, GREAT advice. I see that both the combo cups and regular cups have advantages and disadvantages. It all depends on what you want to ACCOMPLISH! |
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JoeJoe Inner circle Myrtle Beach 1915 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 26, 2016, kentfgunn wrote: You must have spent more than me, I was just using a stock combo set of standard CNC cups to experiment with ... having them all weight the same and be balanced for flipping would be a nice plus. I agree a combo set imposes no limitations and allows for a far expanded set of options ... one day I hope to experiment with three chops, as I believe that would present a lot of new options. Another option on cups that I think is way overlooked by magicians is Tommy Wonder's use of "goblets" ... I have a very nice set of goblets I experimented with and discovered that by chop'ing one of them it allowed me to very cleanly lift the cup to show it is empty - you can see me doing this move on this clip (I queued it up to the actual move, rewind if you want to see the entire routine): https://youtu.be/KDEtL2JZ4ts?t=3m39s My point being there are a lot of options other than just strange looking stackable cups ... there are other options besides just "regular cups" or "combo cups" ... don't limit yourself like that ... whoever said "there is nothing new with cups and balls" obviously had no idea what they were talking about. I'm glad I stopped believing them on that point - I believe the world's oldest magic trick is still rather young. -JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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pabloinus Inner circle 1683 Posts |
I am with Kent on this, I have a set of combo cups and you can not feel the difference look or weight, also yesterday night I was watching again John Mendoza's My best DVD, where he perform s3 c&b routines, one very fast, a variation of Vernon's routine that I think make it better and his Combo C&B routine. Granted that Mendoza is a seasonal performer, all of the routines are entertaining, with a steady pace, you can tell that each routine was developed for the props used, thinking in the differentiation that a chop cup makes for some moves that otherwise would be not possible or to difficult to pull through , as Schneider commented above, there was a reason for the use of a combo, rather than just force the chop cup in the routine because it was there.
For whoever is looking into a combo routine, I recommend Mendoza's DVD, you can see vis a vis different c&b routines. |
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ColtonRaelund Regular user COLTON ZOROASTER RAELUND 116 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 27, 2016, pabloinus wrote: The same point Zach brought up; fit the props to the routine, not the routine to the props. |
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Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse Inner circle 1513 Posts |
I bought the combo cups originally but didn't like keeping track of the gimmick so I actually took it out. Unless you really need it I wouldn't buy it. Just my 2 cents
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Brad Jeffers Veteran user 377 Posts |
Ricky Jay uses a chop cup in his C&B routine ... and a wand!
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rickmagic1 Inner circle MIddle Tennessee area 1544 Posts |
As usual, I'm a couple of months late to the game...
First, Colton, I have been using the combo set for years, and only recently upgraded to the RNT2 Monti combo set, which I love. They are a fantastic set of cups and well worth the investment. I once had the Mendoza set, but the size didn't fit me as well as the Monti cups do. With regards to Mr. Schneider's point, I would say this: if you're using the combo cups for the sake of the gimmick, learn a standard cup and ball routine first...which is what I had done myself. I eventually came to the point of moving to the combo cups because it allowed for a certain effect I was going for at three different points in my routine that I wasn't able to accomplish with the standard cups and balls. I have worked very hard to disguise all of the methods, be they gimmick or sleight, so that the entire routine looks like magic. For me, it was never about having to have a combo set because it was the cool thing to do...it was about utilizing a gimmick that would help accomplish something that a sleight couldn't...at least, not in my opinion. - Rick
Richard Green
The Modern Conjurer Coming soon: Victorian Secrets: An Evening With The Spirits! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
? Unless working for magicians, it's all about finding practical ways to get the magic working for audiences. aesthetic choices that compromise the magic, practical concerns or your own sensibilities need to be addressed in context. Method based design, as opposed to audience based design, is unlikely to produce items which fit into a performers' character and working environment.
If your routine presumes the audience has some magic shop knowlege...likely not going to amuse the rest of your audiences, May contaminate their thinking, may also trip you up on the next routine where they attempt to apply what you've taught them. Just play with a set of chopped cups and find your own balance using the gaffs. It's your show...do what works for you.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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malaki Elite user 490 Posts |
I am a bit late to the conversation, for I just joined the Café only a couple of months ago. That being said, here's my take:
I used to use standard, nickeled cups in my Medieval presentation. I liked them, but never felt that they fit my persona or time period (late 13th century), for they looked too modern. I felt as though fate had smiled upon me the day that I went to a merchant's camp at a Medieval event in New Mexico (Grand Outlandish) and found a set of three matching, cone shaped goblets made of copper, that reminded me of the cones magicians used to use. I immediately went back to camp to get the balls from my magic bag, and lo, they fit! They were also large enough to allow me to make use of my final load balls. These three cups cost me all of $15. I soon upgraded the cups. I soldered on a brass rim (brazing rod) to the cups to soften the edge and give it a bit of color variance. I also installed the proper accoutrements to turn all three cups into chops. I had never used them as such in performance, but knew that the capability was there, for when I decided to add to the routine. This upgrade cost all of $10. Now, years later, I have refurbished the cups by giving them a bright, brushed finish (the cups always had a heavy copper patina before) and copper leafing the interior bases to match the interior of the cups. I am now working on some chop moves to add to my routine, expanding and lengthening the routine to be more than it was. My approach for the new routine is a demonstration of how the arts and sciences developed from magic, but how the "doctors", etc., had gotten a few things wrong. I am enjoying this approach, for it will allow me to do a more convincing routine as I teach a bit of magical history. |
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skilldini New user 42 Posts |
You should not take lightly what Al Schneider has to say. I too am pondering a gaff set of cups for cup and balls. I have a wooden set, possibly Mikame, with 4 squishy red balls that are all chopped. All balls and cups chopped. They are smallish cups with a load of about 2.25". I just walked through the basic routine with one ahead and the penetration through the stack. This set offers extreme convincing in the handling. When lifting to show the penetration, you can lift all 3, or lift one by one. The re-stack is random each step. Very deceptive, and the cups are wood which is nice. No metal. Obviously not examinable with balls. This is an intimate set. Not street or for 50 -
100 people. I do not think in a larger venue using a pouch, and a wand, and the street approach, that I would want to keep up with one "combo" cup and a chopped ball. It would cramp my style. I am in the process of spinning some cups for my use that were made by Gary Animal for me originally. They are oversized Paul Fox design. They handle base balls. I do like the Fox taper which adds to the mystery visually. Let me know if you are interested. Skilldini. |
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TomWay New user Newark, Delaware 11 Posts |
A quick aside on this great conversation. When using my combo set for a non-chop routine, I just use a set of non-chop balls.
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thegreatscungilli Regular user 166 Posts |
If you are going to use the chop-cup as part of a cups and balls routine, another option would be to take a look Johnny Paul's method.
I have read that Johnny Paul's routine gave Al Wheatley the idea that lead to the development of the chop-cup but I am not sure how true that is since I have also read that it goes back to the 1700's when they used a different method involving the ball.. Johnny used sponge balls and does some chop-cup style moves without a chop-cup. You could use something other than sponge balls and maybe bring in a sponge ball or two using Johnny's method to do a vanishes etc. Rings n Things has some nice Johnny Paul style cups.. |
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danny bacher New user 5 Posts |
Hi there! Anyone have a Sherwood engraved silver chop cup for sale?
Very interested. Please PM me. Thx DB |
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dfolson New user 67 Posts |
Quote:
On Jun 6, 2020, danny bacher wrote: You can always buy one directly... https://sherwoodmagic.com/chopCups.php |
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