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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts 
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I need a little help on getting the provenance of an old card force.
It's the one where the force card is on top. Spectator picks a card, or touches a card, at which point the magician places that card on top of the deck and does a subsequent DL or double turnover to show the card. I've only ever known this as "The top card force" but am wondering if it has a proper name and known point of origin. Thanks.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
Tally_NSA Loyal user Essex, UK 222 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 18, 2016, Steven Keyl wrote: I don't know if he invented it, but Rovi (Welsh Magician) used to use that force all the time. I first saw Rovi at the old Magic Circle headquarters in Chenies Mews in London, in 1978. He did that force on me, and I couldn't believe a magician of his calibre would do such an easy force. |
seraph127 Special user 587 Posts
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It's used in Corinda's Thirteen Steps to Mentalism in the context of a "stop trick". That's all I know.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts
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Thank you both. Seems like a generic move.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
carlyle Regular user 166 Posts
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I thought I saw it called a "DL" force, but going through books I could only see that name used in "The Royal Road to Card Magic" (and it's very different than the force you describe).
I've never tried a DL as a force (as it seemed too simple somehow) but after reading this post have been playing with it for a few days. I really like it - a force and control/switch, all in one. It could be fun to have maybe three cards selected from a fan and placed face down on the table. Mix them, and indicate that only one will be used. Once you flash the double (which will be momentarily placed on the deck as you indicated the "discards"), thumb indifferent card off, mix the "same" three cards and return them to a ribbon spread. Sorry for being a bit off-topic, but really enjoyed the inspiration the post gave me. |
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Julie Inner circle 3943 Posts
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This is a powerful technique when used with a JUMBO DECK.
Julie |
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seraph127 Special user 587 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 23, 2016, carlyle wrote: Interesting...
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
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carlyle Regular user 166 Posts
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Thanks - I'm sure it's been done a hundred times, but when trying to get the force to make "sense" to me, it seemed like a workable idea. Probably too drawn-out for many tricks with a selection, but I thought it might be good for a "prediction" type effect or card to card-case or something.
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1947 Posts
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There's a trick in Expert Card Technique, CRYSTAL THOUGHT, which uses the same concept, ie the use of a DL to force a card.
Effect: A card is placed face downwards upon the table. A spectator is requested to think of any card. When the tabled card is turned face upwards, it is found to be the spectator's named card. If I am not mistaken ECT was published quite a few years before 13 steps. |
ThomasJ Special user Chicago 1000 Posts
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If you use this as a force or switch, there must be a reason for placing the removed card on top of the deck before showing the forced card.
For example, remove the card from the deck and move it slightly toward your spectator as if you're about to have her hold onto it. As an afterthought, ask the spectator to hold out her hand, palm up. In this action, the card is placed on top as a means of freeing your right hand to illustrate the manner in which you want her to hold her palm up (Ascanio referred to this as an in-transit action). The card is then shown via a natural looking DL. This premeditated interruption comes off as spontaneous and disguises the fact that you just removed the card from the deck and placed it on top, then proceeded to show it. Ascanio referred to this concept as "Actus Interruptus," of which Giobbi and Tamariz are huge proponents (naturally and rightfully so). This is just one application of how effective Ascanio's idea is in execution. I would try to refrain from using the right hand to place the card on her palm after the DL is turned FD, but rather use your right hand to steady hers as the left slowly pushes off the top card into her hand. It's subtle, but I feel it helps sell the idea that you needed your right hand to be free to begin with. If you need to deal it off with your right hand for whatever reason, then I'd suggest using Marlo's turnover subtlety from THE CARDICIAN. The double is injogged as it's turned FD, right hand removes the top card as left turns palm down and squares the card everyone just saw - all focus is on the face down card in your right hand. Or you could use Tamariz double wherein the dbl is outjogged as it's turned face up. As the dbl is turned FD the shown card is squared and the indiff. card is left outjogged as a single on top. Sorry for the rant and any funky formatting that may have occurred. Sending on the mobile. Best Regards, T.J. |
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seraph127 Special user 587 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 24, 2016, Claudio wrote: Heh, you're right. 20 odd years before. 
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
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seraph127 Special user 587 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 24, 2016, ThomasJ wrote: Sensible advice. I use this force idea as the opening ploy in an AC. The idea is for a card to be touched. Then you pester the poor spec to confirm THIS is the card (which is your ostensible reason for not just requesting a card be withdrawn), as you outjog it. Then I spin the card out and go immediately into an action like Ken Krenzel's Natural Double Lift.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
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ThomasJ Special user Chicago 1000 Posts
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Is the card forced or you just need it 2nd from top?
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seraph127 Special user 587 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 25, 2016, ThomasJ wrote: It's an easy way to set up for a DL. Because I can't be arsed to do a pass. 
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
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ThomasJ Special user Chicago 1000 Posts
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If you're not forcing the top card, spread the deck and separate your hands, leaving the selection on the top of left hand's spread. You can still give the image of singularity by pushing their card further to the right than the rest of those spread in your left hand. Do the whole "this one?" bit and then it's just a matter of cutting the deck. If they want a different one, merely move your hands back together and continue spreading.
Squaring after a cut is natural, so the fact that the card ends up aligned on top is now motivated by the act of cutting the deck. The outjog, replace, turnover sequence you mentioned is not natural. Wouldn't you turn the outjogged selection FU on top in the act of removing it from the deck? Alternatively, if you have a good top change just have the selection removed and execute it at the right time! So simple, so effective. Best of Luck, TJ |
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seraph127 Special user 587 Posts
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First, I'm not blown away by appeals to "naturalness". Can't believe I'm quoting Harry Lorayne, but I do agree with him that spectators expect a magician to handle cards differently. The entire action is continuous, so there's less of a perception that it's two discreet actions. Frankly it seems no less motivated than your suggestion to remove and top change the card - but to each one's own.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1947 Posts
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Seraph, your handling got me thinking. I like your idea of continuous action, which in my mind takes some of the heat off the regular handling, which is rather cumbersome to say the least.
I tried a variation of your handling and here's what I came up with: spread the deck to have a card touched. With your left thumb overtly slide the card out of the middle of the spread an glide it over the top, but out-jog by about an inch. It's easy to catch a break under the 2nd top card while gliding the selection to the top. You can then go into any DL you wish. The one I have tried and works well here is to use the left forefinger to flush the selection with the pack and left-thumb push the double. |
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ThomasJ Special user Chicago 1000 Posts
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To me, naturalness is when the answer to the following question is "yes": Is this how the actions would look if I was actually doing what the audience perceives me to be doing? In this case, the action of removing a single card and showing the face to the audience from atop the pack.
If any of us were to do this with a legitimate single card, I highly doubt we would place it face-down atop a face-down deck and then turn it face-up **immediately**. We would turn it face-up on top in the act of removing the card from the spread. In order to make the DL sequence look normal, there needs to be a moment created that gives motivation for placing the card on top *face-down*. While you could get away with using relevant patter to delay the moment between placing on top and turning over, I think the best solution would be to find a a reason to free the right hand momentarily (move a glass, reposition something on the table, shake someones hand who just joined the group, etc.). Make the interruption brief (2-5 seconds), and then bring the focus back to the top of the deck. To go "...immediately into [a double lift]" would look odd to the audience. Why did he have to put the card on top before showing it to us? Using Actus Interruptus ensures the audience is completely blind to it. Respectfully, T.J. |
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1947 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 26, 2016, ThomasJ wrote: I have put in bold your definition of naturalness. I know where you're coming from, but your wording is ambiguous, I think. If I take a card out of the pack, put it on top of the deck and do a double lift to show it, then the answer is yes: what the audience sees me doing is what I did (besides the DL). I think that expectations might be missing somewhere in the definition, though you clarify your comment in the next paragraph. I know that your comment was not directed at me, but it so happens that I largely share your opinion on this. That's why the handling I described in my previous post tries to address this issue. Though the action I described (sliding the selection off the spread, towards the left, but without separating the hands, and then sliding it to the right and therefore the top while closing the spread and finally turning it face up) is not something that a layperson would do, it makes perfect sense, albeit in a flourishy way. In my opinion, anyway. |
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ThomasJ Special user Chicago 1000 Posts
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Hi Claudio,
I agree with your observation. A better way I could have said it would be that the actions of the ruse look identical to how the actions are *expected to look* when done without the ruse. I like the sequence you mentioned above, and since you said to use the left thumb to push off the double, it ensures the sequence looks natural. If someone were to do this sequence but use the right hand to DL the squared card after the left pushes it flush, it would not look natural. Thanks for sharing with us. T.J. |
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Posted: Mar 18, 2016 07:52 pm 
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