I own a dove tray from many years back in The U.S Air Force!



If any of you are familiar with them you can imagine the effect it has on the dove as it makes it's appearance!



I've got to say that this is one regret I have with my magic-subjecting the dove to what I consider now to be a cruel apparatus for a trick!



Do any of you have any thoughts, comments on this?

Steve

Steve,

I can understand your concerns with the workings of the dove tray, but I do have some information that you might be interested in hearing.



Many magicians, that don’t really work a lot or intensely with doves, sometimes don’t know that doves are truly "workers" and that eventually they actually become accustomed and maybe even enjoy working with the magician.



If you believe that the dove tray is "cruel" to the dove then you would also have to be against just about any other magic involving doves. I’m not sure how your tray works but of all the ones I’ve seen, the dove, is actually quite comfortable and not stressed out at all.



Remember that a dove’s brain is not like a humans in the respect that they resent or have anxiety from being placed in a "tight situation." Unless you are actually putting the bird in a situation where he is being hurt or injured, he is pretty much OK with what you do to him.



In fact, a dove tray is more comfortable for a dove than many of the other tricks done by a dove worker. Of course I do not want to reveal the secrets of a dove tray in an open forum, I would be glad to discuss this with you via e-mail.



I’m not sure what kind of a tray you have but I have owned and used many and have NEVER seen one that was harmful or even uncomfortable for the dove. I have been doing dove magic for almost 10 years now and I have NEVER had a dove get injured or die due to my workings with it.



What I have realized in that long period of time working with doves, is that after a while they begin to perform their jobs better and actually seem to know better than I do what their job is.



I once read an article from another magician who had been doing magic with doves for like 30 years. He said that it was obvious to him that his doves actually looked forward to doing something rather than just being in a cage all day. I too have noticed this.. who knows, maybe we’re both wrong.



One thing I can assure you of is that done right, most of these dove tricks and illusion do not hurt or stress out the bird. Four of my birds are already 10 years old and as happy as they ever were. I have had babies hatched and survive (6 to be exact) and I treat them as well as a caged, domestic animal can be cared for.



I often feel that it is cruel to cage any animal but then white doves (among so many other animals) have been in captivity and domestication for so long, that at this point they couldn’t survive on their own in the wild.



So rather than thinking that I’m being cruel to my doves I realize that someone else could have bought them for satanic sacrifices or even for a meal. There are always two sides to a coin...





_________________

Sincerely,



Colin Markos

Magician Zone

I agree with Colin, the dove tray is probably one of the more comfortable props a dove can be in. By the sound of it yours is crushing the bird. Is this correct? If you like the trick, but your bird is in pain I highly recommend George Kimery's (Chalet Magic).

Billy,



I don’t think Steve is saying that the dove is being crushed more than he is saying that the whole experience is shocking to the bird. Steve’s comment was "imagine the effect it has on the dove as it makes it’s appearance!" I went off on a tangent and neglected to touch on this. Again, as I mentioned before, the dove becomes acustomed to any trick as long as he is not being hurt. The "sudden appearance" of the bird does not in any way hurt or stress him out in anyway. If anything, he’s happy he can now stretch his wings...lol I have a trick that hurls a dove 22" into the air and onto my finger... I really think that my dove actually likes it since he does it right every time! I doubt your tray has that power.. or does it?



There’s always two sides to a coin...







_________________

Sincerely,



Colin Markos

Magician Zone

I never really stopped to think about this. Just to play devil's advocate as a complete non dove worker. I hope it is not a case of just appearing to like the only chance your doves get to be out of their cages. It would be my concern with your thinking.



Being thrust up into an exploding balloon would seem a shock as well as deafening over time.



The thing about hitting your head against a wall, it feels so good when you stop.



Tom Cutts

I have been working with doves for over 20 years. If I thought for a second my doves were being mis-treated in any way by using them, I would give it up all together.

I agree with most of you... my doves almost walk themselves into each dove effect I use. I don’t think it’s a matter of being cruel.

Now.... my wife is my assistant... I cut her in half, I run her through a mirror, I spin her head around on her shoulders and shove light bulbs through her body..... and SHE still loves me!!! Come to think of it, I probably treat my DOVES better than I do HER!!!



I think my birds really do enjoy what they do.



Bengi

In Penn and Tellers book Cruel Tricks for Dear Friends there is a chapter detailing the best magic trick they every saw.

It details this percieved abuse of a dove in a flaming dove pan effect. I won't say any more because I’ll spoil the ending. Great story, check it out.

It does seem to depend on the production and the apparatus. The one dove tray I'm familiar with seems quite comfortable, but you may have a point with the sudden appearance. It's hard to tell what doves really go through. One dove worker told me that doves are so great to use because they are so dumb. He said they just get dazed and sit there as opposed to other birds one might use. I don't know if that's an argument really so much as a description. One way or the other I will say there is an incredible difference between Channing Pollock dove magic and Graig Fruin dove magic. Graig is very cruel to his doves from what I understand. It's too bad the little guys can't talk and tell us. I'm still working a few into my act.



Sable

I would not like to be hurled the human-size equivalent of that 22" myself, whether or not there was an exploding balloon or whatever at the end of it but some people might - bungee jumpers I call them.
I would never subject any animal to that. Any idea what the cumulative effect of being hurled might be on the bird's like-span and general health later on?
I have no problems with the dove trays I have seen. I have a few unfinished glove-to-doves here and I know that item is unlikely to cause a problem because I know how the supplier felt about the animals he used in his professional career.
I have seen a lot of bird producing and vanishing props and cannot remember any which I would feel any concern about putting my birds in.

As a Dove worker for many years using dove trays, and other props I agree that there is no harm to the doves providing that you treat them with respect and kindness. If you do that you'll find that they enjoy working with you.. I use different doves for each method being used so that the doves become used to the routine and in fact do what is expected of them without fuss, so much so that they automatically go to their respective prop as soon as I open their cages. It is essential that you band them for identification if you have more than one and where possible handle them right from hatching.
funmagic

In most of the effects where a dove appears "in" a balloon, the balloon is burst well before the dove appears... and the bird is usually pretty well isolated from the balloon when it does pop. One performer I know has a version that appalls and scares me... she uses the version where the balloon is placed in a sort of hutch, where it keeps the dove from appearing until it pops. She gives the birthday child a magic princess type wand, with a star on the end... and a nasty long sharp needle in the end of the star. The cherub is directed to pop the balloon... Man! this scares me... I don't want to be around a nervous kid with a sharp pin... and I don't want them around my beloved birds either!

I like Kohl & Co. Comedy Version of the Dove Tray.

His first attempt to Shoot balloon, balloon flys away.

His second attempt to shoot balloon, the assistant is in the line of fire.

His third attempt breaks the balloon and feathers fly out. He appears to have shot the dove into pieces.

He picks up the feathers and glues them on a dove vanish and uses a rubber dove and commically pretends the dove is alive and OK.

I use my dove tray all the time, and my bird absolutely loves it. Each and every time, he goes in without a ruffle of his feathers, and when he appears, he always flys right to my shoulder. I think the other users are correct in saying that a dove tray is very comfortable for the dove, and that they really like appearing.

If you're concerned about the loud popping of the balloon and whether it may be deafening your bird, there is a solution.
Instead of a balloon, toss a silk or a pair of gloves onto the tray. I think it looks more magical to see a hank turn into a dove, anyway.

Not a bad idea Munro. I may try that myself.

Sable

I know a guy who makes really nice gloves to doves now that you mention it. Instead of the gloves just changing into a dove, a small flash goes off as the gloves hit the tray. Not only does it provide a bit more cover...but it looks really cool, too!

-Corey