This is about handling cards - counting in particular - at the table.

Someone across the dinner table told me that they could not see the faces of the cards during a trick. I was holding the cards in the usual dealers grip and did an Elmsley Count into my other hand, putting the cards into the fingertips of my other hand. Relative to them the cards where close to on-edge - they were seeing mostly the front edges of the cards. Standing up at the table was not an option. Neither was counting the cards singly into a pile closer to where they sat. Flexing my wrists downward was also not an option as the table was a couple of inches higher than usual.

That left me to reconsider how I could do the usual false counts for an audience who does not have that top-looking-down view. Slowly I worked out two approaches to handling the counting procedures that seem to serve.

One looks similar to what Fred Kaps did from Brother John Hamman in his non-gaffed Gypsy Monte routine - though needs a break to make the Elmsley count action work (so far in my hands ). That means adopting a rest position closer to the overhand shuffle, holding the cards almost perpendicular to the table, and apparently using the thumb of one hand to retain/pull down a card as the action to transfer a card from hand to hand. My other hand rotates away from the vertical and center to display the surface of a card (face or back) - taking focus and the count. The count of one comes before the first transfer. Display then transfer. Easier if you make a slight 1/8 turn to the side, pulling back the shoulder of the side that's doing the displaying - rolling that hand up and back for emphasis if needed.

The second approach starts in dealer's grip and has that hand coming up and over the center line to push off from the face of the packet - the bottom card into the waiting fingers of the receiving hand. That action has the disadvantage of needing a little more cover and more risk of the audience detecting cards being reverse transferred in the sleight. The count in that approach comes during the larger placement action. I like it but it's also putting the sleight right next to the visible action as you start to pull your hand away.

I'm not close to settled yet on what to use as my default actions for card handling. We can open a thread in the secret sessions for details on the sleights - it's the basic card handling approach which interests me. Cards visible to the audience for display. Counting actions as comprehensible and congruent as possible.

What do you think?

JonT

It's definitely an issue. I used to hold the packet at the fingertips, vertically, faces to the public and then carry out the EC. It feels a bit strange at first as you're doing the EC from the opposite way.

What I do nowadays, is to keep the packet in regular grip and position (ie dealer grip and in horizontal plane) and every card, once pushed out, is shown by rotating the wrist outwards and up. This handling will expose the back of the hidden card to people behind you, but you would not expect to be surrounded if you're performing an EC.

In any case, multiple EC will look odd in either handling.

Claudio, you're counting off the top of the packet? In the EC that would make "two" very angle risky from both top and bottom at that moment. misdirection practice?

Getting closer to a count for "at the table" - will test tonight. Feels like learning to ride a bicycle.

Dinner canceled due to coughs... next shot at feedback Tuesday night. And now three ways to practice counting. Maybe I should have learned to juggle. updates on how the counts work after regular people offer feedback. "Huh, I coudn't see the cards" and "That looks like you're showing two cards" were my favorites so far.

Bad luck! So which handling will you try out next time?

A friend suggested I carry a card in my pocket that says "be rational". And that I take it out and look at it sometimes. I made a few. While cutting the cards to size ...they just seemed right for the Elmsley Four Card Trick. Plenty of counts in that routine so there's room to try at least two variations. The diner has high tables so that means elbows stay down and the receiving hand rolling up and inward.

"Be rational" - that's a good one! Then maybe, you might envisage performing a different trick ?

Haha I was simply trying to show someone a small packet trick, Steve Dusheck's item "Thumbthing Cute" (it's a UPCT), and then necessity redirected my efforts at the basics - changing what needs to be changed so the audience can see the cards. True story. Funny things happen when listening to audience comments. They have ideas for what would be magical or interesting.

How bout Stephen Hobbs Control Grip approach? I believe you can tilt the fronts of the cards down slightly so the specs see better.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've heard good things about Stephen Hobbs. It's a real challenge to aim the card faces at the audience during count/displays and make that a new "best practice" habit. Have you tried that approach to show folks the faces of the cards during legit and false counts?

Jon, Short answer, yes. During the counts,the cards are held in a relaxed natural looking manner but you have a high level of control over the cards' pitch, roll, and yaw (so to speak).

Without exposing I can say that, yes, you'd simply raise your right wrist and lower your left slightly (e.g. cards being counted from RH to LH) and that would give the spectators a larger picture plane on the card faces.

The grip can be used for all kinds of counts in a consistent manner.

Check out the promo on Vanishing. Seven disks for $50, incredible value.

https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/......toolbox/

Review

https://youtu.be/66BXmvpHVDw

The Toolbox product looks appealing as a collection of refined closeup items.

The review and what's visible in that matrix-like multi-image clip display present little in the way of making changes to basic card handling for the benefit ones audience when they don't have an elevated view of the props and tabletop.

If you know the folks or Stephen - PM at the Café. Thanks.

Quick update for the week - I showed the three counting actions to company over dinner. Feedback was: The overhand shuffle style thumboff action between displays is most disarming... for now. So that's what I need to practice for a run-through of a trick next week.

Left out a count process for show and tell - Bob Farmer's Spiritu count. That's supposed to read as holding a packet in dealer's grip and openly thumbing over then taking each card into a palm down overhand grip - which turns palm up to display.

Where is this Bob Farmer count described? It reads like the 2nd one I described in my 1st post of this thread.

Hi Claudio, the Spirit Count is in Counthesaurus. Bob's Spiritu count..not sure - ask him. If the count flies- his trick Victoria's Other Secret looks like fun.

Thanks Jonathan. I knew the Gene Castillon Spirit Count, but not Bob's.

Welcome - today I doped out how to do the Spirit(u) count as an Elsmley. Just have a third on the bottom of the packet and away you go.

Tonight I did a reality check on the Spirit/Spiritu count. It flew by as "natural".
Interesting feeling when something seems to work for an audience that you didn't trust as making sense.