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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts 
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Maxyedid said very very difficult, not impossible. I think his opinion is that sleight-of-hand ALONE is not capable of creating impossible magic. But good technique combined with subleties, discrepancies and psychology can add up to impossible magic. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Maxyedid Special user Panama 843 Posts
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There are many different levels of “fooling”. Eric Mead has a wonderful talk in the EMC 2012 where he classifies the different levels of “fooling”. The “ultimate” possible experience for the audience (in regards to being fooled) is when they can’t even suspect that a “method” took place. I believe Slydini called this “unconscious acceptance” if I am not mistaken. Ascanio called this “the magical atmosphere”, when everything is perfect and they surrender to the magical experience.
Now a different experience is when laypeople “feel” you did something, they just can’t put it into words. They still don’t know what or how you did it; they just know “you did something”. These are two different experiences and I believe this idea it’s at the core of “the Spanish school of magic”. DaOrtiz says that it’s the difference between “boy you are good with your hands” and “I have no idea how you did that”. Now my point is (it’s not “mine”, I learned it from them) that when using sleight of hand it’s more difficult to achieve the first result. Of course I’m generalizing; it will depend on many things like misdirection, sophistication of the audience, attitude, etc. But in general terms the methodology of psychology, subtleties and such (which is normally associated with self working magic or semi automatic) allows you to create magic under “impossible conditions”, where the magician never touches the cards, etc. Therefore achieving a deeper experience. Now obviously methodology itself is not enough. Love to talk more about this. See you soon
NEW BOOK! "Semi-Automatic Miracles" - INSTANT Best-Seller at Lybrary.com
https://www.lybrary.com/semiautomatic-card-miracles-p-925333.html chaos handlings, out of hands effects, and more |
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Mike Powers Inner circle Midwest 2986 Posts
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Along these lines -
"There's a world of difference between a spectator's NOT KNOWING how something's done versus his KNOWING that it can't be done." Simon Aronson from "Shuffle-bored" Also "Magic is not simply about deceiving. It's about creating an illusion, the illusion of impossibility." Darwin Ortiz "Designing Miracles" Mike
Mike Powers
http://www.mallofmagic.com |
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Mike Powers Inner circle Midwest 2986 Posts
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Along these lines -
"There's a world of difference between a spectator's NOT KNOWING how something's done versus his KNOWING that it can't be done." Simon Aronson from "Shuffle-bored" Also "Magic is not simply about deceiving. It's about creating an illusion, the illusion of impossibility." Darwin Ortiz "Designing Miracles" Mike
Mike Powers
http://www.mallofmagic.com |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 17, 2019, Maxyedid wrote: I thought about your statement, "Now obviously methodology itself is not enough", and I came up with a different perspective. I'm assuming when you use the term methodology you are referring to the "physical" act of performing the effect. The moves. But perhaps we should broaden method to include misdirection, subtleties, discrepancies and psychology. I know we typically think of those things as separate, as part of the presentation aspect of our craft, but if they are integral to the success of the illusion, aren't they really part of the method? Thoughts?
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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shaunluttin Special user 759 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 18, 2019, Tortuga wrote: That reminds me of two experiences. I see a cognitive behavioral psychologist (Randy Paterson), and I know he uses methods. The methods have an impact that sometimes I only realize months later. There is something about my conversations with Randy, but I am not sure what it is. I would love to know what he does. He is a bit of a magician. Understated, powerful, restrained. I have also attended talks by Joseph Goldstein, who is a meditation instructor. At one, I remember him just vanishing. It's not that he was trying to vanish, it's just that he was walking slowly on the path at one moment, and then I blinked, and he was gone. The atmosphere at the time was mystical and so it felt astonishing. Of course, in a moment of my mindlessness, he had just kept walking, and when I looked up he wasn't there. It's the nature of their methods that are compelling to me. Here is a 29-minute live performance of mine: https://youtu.be/lq2Rj1uf05M I used to be quite sensitive to criticism; I am much less so now; so, please do criticize my technique, presentation, and posts. It helps me to grow, and I promise to take responsibility and not to be defensive. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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I would say that the distinguishing feature of the "Spanish School" of magic is its positing as the primary purpose of performing magic is the increase of feelings of friendship between the audience and the magician. All technique, method and effect is to this end. I don't think this is articulated by other theorists outside this group.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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AntonF New user 85 Posts
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The big difference IMHO from other magicians, specially North America magicians is the construction of the effect. It depends of course on the magician, but Iam reffering to the best of them: Juan Tamariz, Arturo de Ascanio, Camilo Vázquez, Miguel Gómez, Pepe Carrol, Dani Daortiz, Woody Aragón, Kiko Pastur... they try to elaborate routines thinking on two ideas: Emotion and Impossible. The trick must be inexplicable, not to show just what you can do, but to create an emotion. All magic tricks have a meanning, a symbolism, a rememberig. You can evoque them by telling a story, talking about it, using fictional magic (kiko pastur, gabi pareras...)... speaking about speciall properties of the objects, the cards, the coins, narrating a personal experince... this is the style I’m talking about.
On the other hand, to create the impossible you can use a beautiful technique (ascanio spread, Tamarizs P. C., Nemónica handlinds, subtleties...) but the go an step further. They study psichology, neurosciense, perception, PNL, Psichologics Basic Process, memory, atention... and play with it. Check Daortiz’s work on it, or Miguel Angel Gea’s studies. The most interresant example for that is to watch a Tamariz trick, the slates for example, and after that see the excelent explanation in his The Magic Way book. No sleight of hand at all, but every single step, word, joke, subtlety has been perfectly studied and includied in that exact moment, for some reason. The eyes, hands, body, the voice and the feet (the five magic points), are planned in that routine too. I encourage you to see or read Carrol’s work. He passed away some years ago, but he was increadible (he was FISM winner). He put a mixture of emotions and high level technique in his tricks. Top notch. His dice routine is memorable, his presentations side by side with Tamariz in his Card shark sketches awesome. Another important point is technique. For the public, must not be any technique. If we are magicians why do we do such strange moves? Spanish magicians uses sleight of hand, but sleight of mouth, or sleight of mind too. Carrols handling of ascanio spread must be seen. Outrageous. Tamarizs handlid not so good, but his style is remembered for the public, and donot take into acount about technique. To resume, a combination of perfect technique must be used, but just to increase the Magic atmosphere. And very close to the emotions. For the last 20 years I have seen a lot of his performance and Lectures, and I have read a lot of his books, so I know what I am talking about.
[...] The passion culminates in the professional. He would rather play than eat. Winning is not his sole delight.[...] there is but one pleasure in life better than winning, that is, in making the hazard...
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, AntonF wrote: AntonF, thanks for mentioning Pepe Carroll. I searched youtube.com and found a bunch of videos, one of which was a cannibals routine where he displays his stylistic Ascanio Spread. There is also a card manipulation performance on there where he performs in black gloves. I had never seen black gloves used, but it actually makes the performance better, no flashing is visible whatsoever. Don't know if it was his idea, but whomever thought of it was very bright.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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shaunluttin Special user 759 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, landmark wrote: That's certainly an impact it has on me when watching; it's easier for me to relate to a performer from The Spanish School. It's a bit like the difference between watching Tom Cruise perform vs watching someone perform in my local community theater. Magicians from the Spanish School also tend to speak Spanish. Here is a 29-minute live performance of mine: https://youtu.be/lq2Rj1uf05M I used to be quite sensitive to criticism; I am much less so now; so, please do criticize my technique, presentation, and posts. It helps me to grow, and I promise to take responsibility and not to be defensive. |
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AntonF New user 85 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, Tortuga wrote: Not at all. Pepe Carrol was one of the best magicians in the world, but he lived in a time where Internet was not so used as today, and for this reason, he is not so famous out of Spain. Dani Daortiz sells some videos where explains a lot of routines which are not on his books 52 Lovers.
[...] The passion culminates in the professional. He would rather play than eat. Winning is not his sole delight.[...] there is but one pleasure in life better than winning, that is, in making the hazard...
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Maxyedid Special user Panama 843 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 23, 2019, AntonF wrote: I'm not familiar with this... what videos you are referring to?
NEW BOOK! "Semi-Automatic Miracles" - INSTANT Best-Seller at Lybrary.com
https://www.lybrary.com/semiautomatic-card-miracles-p-925333.html chaos handlings, out of hands effects, and more |
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AntonF New user 85 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 30, 2019, Maxyedid wrote: I’m referring to a set of 4 DvDs released by Dani some years ago. They are a compilation of private sessions, some of them in a very famous place in Barcelona (El Llantiol). There are some performance with public, but not seen on TV. And includes too his complete FISM act. I know because I have it. And much more...
[...] The passion culminates in the professional. He would rather play than eat. Winning is not his sole delight.[...] there is but one pleasure in life better than winning, that is, in making the hazard...
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marc_carrion Special user 638 Posts
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I have great memories of "El Llantiol"
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AntonF New user 85 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 19, 2019, Tortuga wrote: You are welcome. You can see in a website called Magicana, a lot of oerformances of Spanish magicians, not only Carrol’s but other great magicians too. I don’t put the link, because I am not sure if is allowed by the moderators of this site, but just google it and you will find it.
[...] The passion culminates in the professional. He would rather play than eat. Winning is not his sole delight.[...] there is but one pleasure in life better than winning, that is, in making the hazard...
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1172 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 17, 2019, shaunluttin wrote: I watched Dani DaOrtiz's [first] Penguin lecture recently. He repeatedly said that he finds it easier to manipulate people than cards. All his "moves" seemed to be hidden in plain sight. They are so casual that they don't register as important in the spectators' minds. Is this the "Spanish" approach? |
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korttihai_82 Inner circle Finland 1880 Posts
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Spanish school is not just one thing but large collection of things that all make magic stronger. There are also different styles of magic within the "Spanish school" as well. Tamariz is different from Ascanio, DaOrtiz is different from Aragon, Gabi was different from all the above etc.
Also magic in Spain has been in public eye for a long time and it is considered as art and worthwhile entertainment. Magic in Spain is not generally thought to be "for kids" as in many other countries. Great magicians have been on TV since 1960's and that affects everyone interested in magic. A common laymen has seen great magic and that is the bar that every magician is measured towards. This also means that new magicians set their goals based on what they have seen; high. Spanish technical level is often quite high, polished and relaxed. If most people around you are doing sleights that might be considered advanced in other countries, you will not consider them as advanced since you see everyone around you doing them. You will also want to practise since you don't want to look worse than your peers. Spanish have also approached magic academically for at least half a century. They don't just work on tricks or techniques. They do tons of work on theory and performance. They study things in groups, write articles about their findings and share those articles around so other groups can benefit from the information but also peer review it and ask more questions on the topic. The process is much more analytical than in most countries. In tricks this usually shows as more thought out routines than rest of the world. Just watch Tamariz explain one of his routines. It is not just "do this sleight here, another here". He has thought out all the small details and bits and pieces and explanation can easily be +1 hour and he is still rushing thru it. It is also funny how most magicians when talking about spanish style or school always mention the same few names but actually there is like +50guys/girls of same caliber in Spain and also in South America. Some of them are still rather young or they don't speak english too well and are therefore not known outside their countries. But average skill level in Spanish speaking countries is just crazy high when compared to rest of the world. |
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Posted: Apr 17, 2019 08:20 pm 
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