Is this Kev1n guy for real? Tell me he is joking.

Look, nothing that is at one time considered "underground" will permanently stay underground. All things come to the mainstream. From punk music to Crumb comix. It's the natural progression. And I hate to tell you this, but there's not a *** thing you can do about it.

Also, "underground" is an abstract concept. Nothing is truly "underground". Somebody, somewhere has heard of it. The desire to be aware of something that not many people are privy to, and the desire to keep it that way is selfish and elitist.

Kev1n, I wish you luck out there in the big mainstream world, you're going to need it.

Who cares about any of this, it doesn't matter...

Dead people stay underground!!!

that's about it.

That would make Elvis one of the biggest underground artists around.

I am so underground there is dirt on my shoulders.

I don't live in the mainstream world. You couldn't me more wrong.

Gangsta undagrownd! upinchea!!! ca-i-wa-li wondering what this guy be thinkin flashin gangsta poses on da innanet. Word dawg, it's kev1n Mitnik!!!! Didn't you hack motorola? hahahaha PEACE Hommie!

PS...guess yo be undagrownd no mo cause I kno yo face and I'll see you at mcdonald's and call it out!!! "Yo dere's an undagrown flourisha up in chea!" All da peeps be runnin den.

I have no avatar because I'm really underground. Bet you've never heard of Montross, VA buddy!

I can't even comment on this anymore. Some of you guys are nuturing your own absurdity.

You guys want to really know what a threat to flourishes is? It's myopic little punks basing their opinions on their own imaginings and then not having the education to even express that with even the mildest hint of credibility.

You want to be respected? Then be respectable.

Oh, and try speaking English. This "gangsta-speak" is becoming tedious.

And I hate to break it to some of you, but we all live in a mainstream world, despite your romantic notions of the "underground". There is no underground! There never was. You are lying to yourselves.

Haha mine was joking, but if you took offense I apologize, I thought it was funny.

I also agree with your opinion and to classify "You guys" as more than just Mr. Kevin, you're mistaken. I believe he is the only one on this topic expressing those opinions and that's what they are. Nothing more and nothing less.

I also believe this to be a non-issue because it's ALL opinion.

Underground is just a name!!

But!!

There are certain things that most of you will never have the privilege of seeing or learning. That's the underground that most people are talking about.

So firedice. In some ways it is a romantic dream for a good majority of the people in this forum.

Good luck to you all.

So it's just some well kept secrets. That's underground for most people. And it will stay that way. Sure it sounds snobby or elitist, but I'm sure you would protect your material from most of the people in this forum anyway.

The fact is that people steal. And if they don't steal, they will learn your move and then run to their buddies and say "hey guys check this out". the next thing you know your private material that you only planned to share with a small group of friends is all over the internet on crappy little videos. there is only one way to keep this from happening. And that's to keep it in a tight group of people. Your own little "underground". If your move or flourish or trick leaks, you know it had to be one of your own group. You then beat the living crap out of them.

Some things will never be mainstream. that's how I like it!

Justin, I'm with you. I knew you were joking around as I've read many of your other posts, but I also saw the satire in how you were saying what you were saying. That just got me thinking about all the punks I've seen here and out in the real world talking the same silly crap that is being brought up here. I can't go into a magic shop these days without some kid trying to show off is one card variation on the cobra cut and then start touting how underground he is. So, please, Justin, don't think I was attacking you. I see how it looks like that.

Lonnie makes a good point too. If they're are some solid, truly secret moves out there created by the true students of the art, then I hope to god that they keep them close to their heart. Unfortunately, that's probably easier said than done.

I also love how these so-called "underground" flourishers are just doing the same exact cuts and fans that are taught on a plethora of DVD's and books. Do they really expect us to believe that they're performing moves that only they know and it was taught to them by some decrepit old geezer sitting in a moutain-top temple with nothing but a walking stick, a bowl of rice and a deck of Tally-Hos? And that's IF they're not claiming to have invented the move themselves.

Lonnie, another point you made got me thinking. I think if you create something, and want to keep it to yourself or just share it with a few friends, you absolutely have that right and more power to you! However, if you're hording mainstream knowledge and then trying to pass it off as "underground", then that is where the snobbishness and elitism comes in.

I think the more these surface-dwellers-in-denile lament the tragic loss of their alleged "underground" the more they show us that they just wish they truly were privy to something unique and not just feeding off the mainstream products like the rest of us.

And now, after typing all that, I still have to say this; They're just stupid playing card flourishes! LOL!

Man... we are such nerds.