|
|
|
|||
DJ Trix Inner circle 1197 Posts 
|
Hi, does anyone know if any Bicycle decks are printed on Theory11 Monarch card stock? I love the Monarch card stock, expecially for faroing. They are perfect. But I like the look and familiarity of bikes, plus my long time marking system. If I could find Bikes on Monarch stock I would be delighted.
Thank you kindly. |
Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
|
I don't know that what you are looking for exists. The stock that Monarch's are printed on is a FSC-certified paper and I have yet to see any of the Bicycle Rider Backs advertise them as such. And I assume you mean Rider Back design when you use the term Bicycle. Obviously the word Bicycle appears on dozens and dozens of their cards, all having unique backs.
For the Faro Shuffle I'd point you towards the Richard Turner Gold Seal Bicycle Rider Back cards. From what I remember they are printed on Bee Premium Casino Stock and they are traditionally cut. That helps if you Faro from the bottom-up. You didn't specify. On the subject of Bicycle Rider Backs, there are so many these days it makes one's head spin. There are the Gold Seals, Elites, Standard, etc., etc. All look similar but are very different. You might try emailing USPCC to see if they can help answer your question. Endersgame is another forum member here that you should contact to see what he knows. The trend has been towards thinner bikes and I wouldn't call Monarch's thin, quite the opposite. So Like I said, I doubt what you are wishing for is out there. Closest would probably be the Gold Seals.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
|
|
DJ Trix Inner circle 1197 Posts
|
Hi yes in Rider Back design. I should have mentioned that.
Yes I believe I faro from the bottom up. Thank you for your help Ray. |
|
NinoL New user 19 Posts
|
As someone who works in the world of playing cards I think you're giving T11 a little too much credit, and a lot of this is in the mind and also in the subtle differences between print runs.
USPCC offer only one major card paper stock, which is then offered with a couple of different finish options and the option also to 'crush' the stock to varying degrees. Realistically though there will be as many differences between different print runs of Monarchs or other T11 decks than there are between Rider Backs and T11 decks. Personally I find that the inks and the amount of colouration we use in our designs seems to affect the handling. So thicker block colour backs (like monarchs) handle differently to say, a rider back where there's more white space. It's definitely interesting but I wouldn't expect you'll find an answer easily, best to just try what you can. As for like-bikes and affordable, the 'elite' version and now there's also another... the name escapes me. They likely use different stock options to try out, I'm sure one will be similar to what T11 use. |
|
Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
|
Just so there's no confusion here, and it seems there might be, Theory 11 playing cards are manufactured by the United States Playing Card Company. They may be made to specifications chosen by T11, but USPCC makes them.
So the question is how do Monarchs, which DJ Trix says he prefers compare to the handful of Bicycle Rider Back design cards on the market? And the answer isn't easy. In the end, I still say USPCC might have to weigh in, but just based on what I have read and comparing the cards I've actually purchased, I doubt there is an exact equivalent between the two. However, there are characteristics which can be compared favorably such as the ability to Faro Shuffle in a predictable manner, etc. I mentioned Endersgame earlier. Here is a great resource he put together on Theory 11 cards: https://playingcarddecks.com/blogs/all-i......0quality.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
|
|
Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
|
Quote:
On Mar 22, 2023, DJ Trix wrote: No problem! It wasn't until relatively recently that some of the USPCC cards have been advertised as having a "traditional" cut. That simply means cut while the cards are face-up versus face-down. They apparently cut most all of their cards that way in the past, hence the title traditional, but changed to face-down at some point because it was more efficient and cost-effective. What happens when the blade makes its cut is it leaves the edge in a slightly bevelled condition. It is that bevel which helps to make the card faro in one direction more easily. You can faro in either manner, but one way is going to be much easier. A well cut deck will faro with an almost instantaneous "pop" versus a slow weave where you may even have to "saw" the cards to encourage them along. Traditionally cut cards are ever so slightly narrower on the face as compared to the back, hence a bevel or taper.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
|
|
DJ Trix Inner circle 1197 Posts
|
Yes I definitely have that instantaneous pop effect with the Monarchs. They faro better than any other deck I have tried. But I just ordered a brick of the Turner Bikes. Hopefully they function just as well.
|
|
Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
|
Quote:
On Mar 23, 2023, DJ Trix wrote: I suspect you are going to like them. Make sure to report back!
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
|
EndersGame Inner circle Reviewer EndersGame 2198 Posts
|
Quote:
As someone who works in the world of playing cards I think you're giving T11 a little too much credit, and a lot of this is in the mind and also in the subtle differences between print runs. I would agree with most of this, especially the first sentence. Theory11 decks are produced by USPCC, and most of the decks that USPCC prints on the same stock would handle and feel exactly the same as the Monarchs. There's always going to be variance between print runs, so one deck of Monarchs won't necessarily handle as good as another deck from a different print run. Similarly there will be many decks USPCC has printed for other brands that use the same stock as the Monarchs and will feel and handle exactly the same as them. It's not quite true that USPCC offers one major card paper stock. Ever since their move to a new plant in Erlanger, Kentucky in 2009, USPCC had been offering two stocks to their customers: Classic or Retail stock (sometimes called Bicycle Standard), and Premium stock (sometimes called Bee Casino). The main difference between them, admittedly, has to do with thickness. And even that had to do with thickness within a certain range, rather than two precisely designed thicknesses that will always be exactly the same. In 2016 USPCC made a new option available. After choosing one of these two stocks, you could opt to have your choice of stock "crushed" as an optional process. Effectively that meant that creators of playing cards now had a choice of four different stock options: 1. Premium stock (= Bee casino stock) 2. Retail stock (= Bicycle standard stock) 3. Crushed Premium stock 4. Crushed Retail stock The crushed stocks have really taken the world by storm, and are proving very popular. They are slightly thinner and noticeably softer from the box. The Monarchs do NOT use crushed stock, but I think that they use the thicker Premium stock, with the non-crushed option. Not all Bicycle Rider Backs are created equal. For example, the Elite Edition Bicycle Rider Backs came out in 2017, and they use the crushed stock, and feel noticeably different from traditional Rider Backs. It sounds like what you are looking for are Rider Backs that use the thicker Premium stock that is uncrushed. I think Ray has already pointed you in the right direction: the Richard Turner Gold Seal decks. They use the thicker Premium stock (as mentioned already, also called "Bee Stock"), just like the Monarch decks. You'll see this confirmed in the description on the product page and in the reviews over on Penguin Magic here: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/5676 If you're interested in learning more about USPCC's main stock options, and especially about how crushed stock is different and why it is popular, see my article on the subject here: What You Need to Know About USPCC's Crushed Stock Hope this helps, and please do report back once you've had a chance to check out the Richard Turner Gold Seal Bicycle Rider Backs, with your impressions! |
|
DJ Trix Inner circle 1197 Posts
|
Ah, it all makes sense now. Thanks Ender.
It does indeed sound like the Turner Riders are the answer. It also looks like Theory 11 sells the old style pre 2009 Rider Backs which are probably what you are referring to as 'Premium'. The Standards seriously are terrible for Faros. Or maybe it is just the lot from the brick I have been practicing with. But as soon as I started practicing with Monarchs my consistence of a perfect weave on the first shot doubled. I am ordering a handful of these from Theory 11 also to compare. They are a bit cheaper which is always favorable. |
|
Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
|
Just to follow up on something DJ Trix mentioned about "old style pre 2009 Rider Backs" I believe what is going on there is they are simply selling the 807 version of Bicycle Rider Backs, not the 808, which also says "Standard" on the box. The only difference is the box. The 807 features the back of a playing card on the rear of the box while the 808 now has the advertising. That eliminates some effects where you need to have a depiction of the back of a card on the box. Plus they just look better IMHO. First time I saw them at Wally World I cringed. But according to everything I've read, what's in the box remains the same.
If you require the tuck case with a back, make certain to ask for the 807 version. Here's more from Don Boyer on playingcardforum.com "Just to be sure we're both talking about the same thing, USPC does currently make two different versions of the Bicycle Rider Back tuck box. The "Standard" box is the one most commonly seen in stores everywhere - it's the newer of the two, created in 2009 after the company moved from Cincinnati to Erlanger. That's the "808" tuck. The "807" tuck is often called the "Classic" box by modern deck collectors. It's the previous box design for the Rider Backs that the company originally stopped using in 2009. Aside from the additions of elements like bar codes and updated side text, it's essentially the same box they've used for at least 40 or 50 years prior to the move. To be clear, the cards inside both boxes are IDENTICAL, all made in Erlanger now. Both are currently still available from USPC - though the 807 decks are not sold much outside of their own store at shopbicyclecards.com or perhaps in a well-stock magic shop. The primary reason for the "box revival" is that the older design is still popular among many people who use the deck and there are several magician's gaffs that are designed specifically to be used with the older "807" type box design. Both tucks, to the best of my knowledge, are also exactly the same size. They're printed on the same paper using the same template. There are older versions of the tuck that may have a bit of variance, such as a longer top flap, but technically, those "Classic" boxes aren't the 807s currently being offered for sale. The modern, Erlanger-issued "Classic" box will have a bar code on the bottom, and in the code is a number 807 (but so will some of the oldest "Classic" boxes made in Cincinnati). However, the older ones will still say they were made in Cincinnati on the sides of the box, while the new ones will likely say either Erlanger or "Made in U.S.A." on the side. Any Cincinnati box with a bar code and a black seal is probably a "transition" deck - the box says Cincinnati but there's a very solid chance the cards inside were printed in Erlanger. They were using up the leftover, pre-printed tuck boxes during the relocation. Now, if you were referring to something else, or you have additional questions about this, let us know!" Logged Card Illusionist, NYC Area Playing Card Design & Development Consultant Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Sharps Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
|
|
NinoL New user 19 Posts
|
Quote:
On Mar 24, 2023, EndersGame wrote: Good shout. Interestingly I was watching Roberto Giobbi's Penguin lecture again the other day and he mentioned that the way they used to cut the cards at the factory - which I presume is the oft-cited 'traditional cut' is about the direction of the cut, whether it's front to back or back to front. I can't remember which he was saying it used to be or is now, but he claimed that the changing of the cut affected how easy decks were to faro. Modern decks faro easier in the hands, and classic decks were easier to table faro. He had a quick solution on getting round this and having a deck faro easily both ways (aside from doing the faro face up!) but I haven't tried it as I only faro in the hands for now. It was interesting though, basically just rubbed the bevelled deck sides on a piece of card or paper and it should smooth them out. Not tried it, worth a go. |
|
Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
|
NinoL, back in the day, USPCC cut cards face up. The sheets were face up when they ran through the cutter, and that cutter, just by the way it works, leaves the edges in a very slight beveled shape. That shape contributes to the ease with which the cards will faro and also to the manner in which they weave. The "old way", or what is called "traditional", because it is the way they used to do it, results in the cards weaving more easily from bottom to top, making tabled faros easier. Either way of cutting works in the hands, but the traditional cut will weave better from the bottom up, the "new" way, from the top down. So if you are a "bottom up" in the hands faroer like myself, the traditional cut is preferred.
Hope that helps clarify.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
|
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Bicycles in Monarch Card Stock? (0 Likes) | |
Posted: Mar 22, 2023 06:11 am 
| [ Top of Page ] |
|
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.08 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
|
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < 
|