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unilogo Veteran user Las Vegas , NV 359 Posts |
WOW this turned out to be a great thread...
I found so much useful information here.... I did come up as an ignorant so I am not going to say I was right.....I was probably wrong. What I meant by drawing a line ever...was true...maybe I should. I was heavily influenced by your post moonligh knight...you seem to know your stuff. thanks for the awesome replies. I am from the bottom of my heart thanking you...even if you can not believe it.. But you changed my mind... I ADMIT I WAS WRONG>>>>OK!! Now what I should do is get better informed on everything from laws to knowledge like that of the outcome of previous people that you moonlight say existed with the same ideas. personally I would mutilate myself to a point.(this is drawing a line , so I know I was wrong there) one thing to think about ....but now I realize that I must make the audinece happy which was my inicial goal as a magician when I started and I lost it somewhere along the lines.. So I know that's where I went wrong. If I did it for myself I would obviously not be enterntaining the people, so it would be stupid of me to perform in front of them if I only wanted to please myself.SO I should think a lot about them and their concearns. SO now I am off to study the outcome of thosse people and seeing the boundaries I can reach...thanks again. maybe Ill come back to this effect or dismiss it..anywhom the effect is there for those that might even think of using it. Or if you come up with other variations..... it is my first effect so I am happy with it. That might of had something to do with my thinking..... anywhom thanks and ive learned ignorance is BAD andGet informed when trying to reach a new boundary in anything you want to do which might seem bad. another life lesson...thanks bye. |
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RBerteig Regular user Monrovia, California 146 Posts |
This thread has been interesting. At first glance, it appeared we had an interloper here just to shock us with a quick tasteless trick.
To my surprise (and why does this keep surprising me anyway?) the Café members continue to take such posts as opportunities to educate rather than just flame the apparent fool. To my further (and pleasant) surprise the Boojum was not a Snark. That is, the apparent fool isn't. Bizarre is not about shock or disgust. It is not about Horror. It is about attempting to connect with your audience and move them to feel strong emotional reactions which may, in fact, include shock, disgust, and horror. Art isn't about shock either. Moonlight Knight is better researched than I, so I will just second him. I would note that I think that the recent trend for art to attempt to offend its patrons is probably unhealthy for Art as a whole. It is certainly allowed to shock and disgust your audience if that is the expected reaction to your message. But you better have a message there in the first place if you expect to find continued patronage. And the world will be a better place if your message is something other than "look at me, I like to shock people". Even Tom Green has managed to clean up some of the sillier bits of his act in order to continue to get work Unilogo, you got worked over a bit because of the initial snap reactions your original post inevitably caused. I am glad you stuck through, and aren't taking what is obviously intended as constructive criticism in any of the many possible wrong ways. I hope to see more of your thinking as you work through the tough problems of developing your character, motives, and message, not to mention scripting presentations and all the less glamorous bits involved in this strange art we all share. Welcome to the odd side...
Ross Berteig
Wizards in my Parlor |
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Moonlit Knight Regular user U.S. 113 Posts |
Unilogo - my goal was not to get you to change your mind or admit you were wrong. That is not for me to say, do or get you to do. I only wanted you to think about what you are doing so that you were prepared for what could happen. The best way of being prepared is to look into what has come before and not placing limits on yourself by sticking within one field of study. Allow yourself to discover other things that may be similar and learn from them.
There is no reason to feel or believe that you “must make the audience happy”. You know the sort of audience you are attempting to reach better than I, and most people here, do. As such, they may want or expect something more than what I, or others, would give. So, my advice is to discover what you want to present and then fit it into some form that they (your audience) would find agreeable and / or acceptable. You may not want to make them happy and they may not want to be happy. It may sound strange, but my goal is not to make my audiences happy nor is it to bring about any particular feeling. Any decent entertainer, salesperson or politician can easily bring about any emotion from the people who watch or listen to them. I have a greater goal. Perhaps a selfish one (selfish, not self-centered, there is a difference) -- for me, (and I’ve posted it before in the Café) I want to bring my audience to the point where they understand and that their emotions are from the same nature as mine. I just don’t want them to feel, I want them to feel what I feel. I want them in touch with themselves in a way that may not have been realized before. When they leave, I want them to understand that it’s alright to question, contemplate and wonder - but that's just me. My way, my goal, is not for everyone nor should it be. It takes a lot of work in the areas of planning, understanding, research and self-discovery. I am in no way saying that your dove pan performance will not work - it can. After all, a couple of well - known entertainers in the field of magic have done and published some items that are not considered in the realms of good taste. Penn & Teller cut and restore a snake and have produced five hundred cockroaches on David Lettermen’s desk (both are described in “Cruel Tricks for Dear Friends” ) Harry Anderson once sought to elicit strong reactions from his audience, good or bad. The book “Harry Anderson Wise Guy” describes Harry’s evolution as a performer / entertainer, some methods and some of his performance scripting. Two of the more unusual bits in the book include “Arm Amputation” and “Needle Through Arm”. In the mid 90’s, within the realm of bizarre, it seemed that the trend was to present items that instructed the performer to use blood (stage blood) and creepy- crawlies to punctuate the effect or use them as the effect itself. For me, what “tricks” one decides to do within the realm of the bizarre is of little concern (this does include the use of “geek” or “disgusting” magic). However, it must be noted that the use of "geek" or "disgusting" magic should not be looked upon as being the end all and be all of bizarre nor should presentations about vampires, wolf men and aliens. Bizarre performances must have meaning. There must be a logic, there must be a reason and your audience must understand what that is. Bizarre magic is not about “tricks”, whatever the “trick” may be or how it is accomplished. It is about the presentation (not unlike others on this forum wrote and suggested). When I write of presentations, I do so to include anything and everything that can be controlled by the performer. To quote RBerteig (Ross) “It is about attempting to connect with your audience and move them...” So, Unilogo, use your strengths and understand your weaknesses to make them both stronger. Do not take your audience for granted - study and learn all you can about the subjects you wish to cover - including anywhere your findings may lead. Learn all you can about the sort of people you wish to direct your performances towards and finally design your own stuff that fits into that segment of the population. In closing - I wish to reiterate Ross’s thoughts - as I, as well, “hope to see more of your thinking as you work through the tough problems of developing your character, motives, and message, not to mention scripting presentations and all the less glamorous bits involved in this strange art we all share.” Best of luck!
"Join the dance... Follow on! With a twist of the world we go."
- Genesis "Dancing With The Moonlit Knight" |
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bloodyjack Veteran user Seattle WA 343 Posts |
I have had a similar line of thought for a bizarre trick but have been trying to come up with a prop that works like a dove/chick pan but looks like a take out rice carton.
It would have a nightmare Voodoo type framework and the rice would turn in to live maggots. This obviously would be for the shock value but with a good framework could be very bizarre indeed.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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unilogo Veteran user Las Vegas , NV 359 Posts |
Wow...
thanks again you should be my mentor ps.I have "cruel tricks for dear friends", I love penn and teller. Its so NICE to know so many people are concerened with the future of magic and everything else. |
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Dr_Stephen_Midnight Inner circle SW Ohio, USA 1555 Posts |
Another performer (on the Shadow Digest) suggested mounting a chick pan to a candlestick, making it look like a chalice. I tried the idea; it works well.
Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No." Dr. Lao: "Wise answer." |
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R2 Special user 935 Posts |
The very best thing about this entire thread was the drawing out of "Sir Moonlit Knight" Where have you been all of this time my Brother?
Fine job of allowing us to dwell within the psyche of someone for a spell! Many thanks for the many thoughts~r2 |
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Brother Kotah New user wWsconsin 45 Posts |
Unilogo, the fact that you said 'you don't care' is very telling. I also think that you do not understand or know what bizarre magic is. It is not shock for the sake of shock. It is story telling magic meant to touch emotions, not to make your audience nauscious. Your idea is neither magic nor art, and certainly not entertainment. I suggest you scrap your plans, and grow up a bit.
He who sees strangely
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unilogo Veteran user Las Vegas , NV 359 Posts |
"brother kotah" did you bother reading the thread?
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Moonlit Knight Regular user U.S. 113 Posts |
I’ll field the comments, that I believe I should respond to, in order of their appearance :
Bloody Jack - your thought reminds me of a scene in The Lost Boys. I know that when I’ve ordered rice from a Chinese take-out, for example, I have received it in one of three types of container styles - the first is a box-type with a folded, interlocking top and a wire handle. Another type is a round cardboard container with a removable, overlapping lid generally having two small holes in it. More recently, I have been given a styrofoam container with a thin, translucent lid. PM me with what style of container you wish to use and I may have an idea of making what you wish to accomplish, workable - even if the method is not at all like that of a dove pan. Unilogo - I’d be happy to assist you in helping you better your performance. If so inclined, feel free to PM me. ReyRey - I’ve been lurking about off and on and from what I’ve recently read about you - I’m happy you are still with us. Also, now might be a good time to say -- being a bizarrist and looking to impart what I do may never lead me, or others who follow the same path as I do, to the level of stardom within the mind of the general public. I am content with that. If others have been able to reach a large audience on a consistent basis, being able to impart and build some of the ideas and thoughts presented within the bizarre, without sacrificing too much, then I say that is a wonderful thing. It’s a difficult balance to reach and maintain, even within a single stage show. Every magician may think he/she knows what an audience is looking for within a single show and might design their performance to work everyone happily in, in order to reach the greatest number of people. This is not a bad thing, but some performers who do this tend to water-down what they do or the reasons for doing it, so that nothing is left but the trick or what the audience sees. The art may still be there but one must look deep to find it. This, for me, is what I consider “safe magic“. In a way, I admire what I believe Unilogo and others have attempted or thought of attempting to do. They appear to know, on a certain level, that they won’t be able to reach everyone and may not even try. Unfortunately, instead of narrowing down who their audience is via research and strategic marketing, they more often than not choose the “easy out” by apparently letting the audience sort themselves. Unhappily, this stirs negative emotions from members of the audiences and may harm the work other magicians do, who do not perform the same way. Any performer of magic who has a respect for the art of magic, is willing to stretch themselves to become something more than what they were / are, to make their performances more powerful and take the time to respect themselves, as well as the art, enough to discover who their audience is can only be a good thing. That, more than anything else, I believe, will push our craft onward. Ray Ray, I am pleased to be thought of as your brother.
"Join the dance... Follow on! With a twist of the world we go."
- Genesis "Dancing With The Moonlit Knight" |
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R2 Special user 935 Posts |
Likewise Sir Knight! It's comforting to know that folks are out there analyzing our art in an introspective way instead of creating commercial acts for the masses!
Fraternally,~r2 |
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DrNorth Veteran user North Starr Entertainment, Harrisburg PA 364 Posts |
Ok, don't use real animals, dress up some prop and then use it in shock priented haunted house. I can't even see a bizzarest doing that one.
"For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be. But which it that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell" ~Galadriel "A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes." |
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
I agree with the others, this is an interesting and informative and a fine example of the caliber of Mage on this forum.
And I also agree that perhaps the focus is too much on the effect on not on the framework of the presentation. The framework really is what brings the effect to life and touches people.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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