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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts 
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I'm wondering how much good stuff has been removed from the classic effects that Michael Ammar does from his card videos.
I bring this up because I saw someone else perform 8 card brainwave (don't even remember who/where) but they had an extra subtlety that was performed after the trick was over to further enforce the singularity of the odd-color card. (PM me if you care) This made me think... 1. Hey, I like that added touch. 2. I wonder if that was supposed to be there and was removed to make the effect easier. 3. Are many of the tricks missing things that made the originals great but make these presentations so-so? 4. Ammar himself says during the explanation of several effects that they have been simplified/modified/whatever. Since I don't have a huge library of magic books with all the classics, etc. I have nothing to compare the videos with. What do you experts think about the presentation of these effects compared with the originals? thanks, frank
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts
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On 2002-08-14 00:56, fstarsinic wrote: That could only be answered on a specific basis; what I might feel is a vital touch could be viewed as meaningless to others. The only way to judge this would be in terms of yourself - - - no shortcuts, you have to crack the books on your own I'm afraid. Most magicians don't care to worry about things like centerline, beats, direction, or economy of motion. We can all wonder if watching a tape is the start of thought as to performing magic, or substitution for it. |
Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts
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We can all wonder if watching a tape is the start of thought as to performing magic, or substitution for it. Clearly, in Frank's case (based on his question), it is the former.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts
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Randy, How did I know you'd be the first to reply.
I care very much about those things especially after reading ..."Leading with your head". Great book. It seems that all videos suffer from AT LEAST the need to stay in frame at the cost of something in the routine itself. One of many trade-offs, I suppose.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts
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Videos have value - but, the paint is already on the canvas. With books, you paint your own canvas.
There is no person that cannot perform magic from tapes BETTER than it is on the tape. By better, I mean more effective for that individual and that individual's audiences. If tapes were viewed as a starting point, and not some rendition to aspire to- anyone who performs would be far better off. And so would those who watch them work. |
Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts
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The Trost Eight Card Brainwave routine is in the book "The Card Magic of Nick Trost" (1997) which is well worth getting anyway, Frank. A lot of good routines in that book.
It also appears on the site http://www.rapidmagic.com though maybe that description came from the tape(?). Personally I always preferred Al Cohen's similar "Dot's Impossible" and used variations on that with business cards for years.With additional subtleties. I doubt Ammar went out of the way to remove "good stuff" on the tapes, if anything alterations would be purely to simplify method. One has to remember that these effects (with the exception of items like Card on Ceiling) were not part of Ammar's regular repertoire, he was simply demonstrating the effects of others for the tapes. In doing so, the routines would lack the "bits of business and subtleties" that performers who have used the effects for years would have incorporated over time. The person you saw perform the Trost effect "live" had probably been performing it since it was sold as a packet trick many years ago. Paul. |
Ross W Inner circle UK 1779 Posts
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On Vol 5 (I think) there is a version of Louis Falanga's Virgina City Shuffle. In Falanga's book (Lake Tahoe Card Magic) it is described using that display of three cards usually done with Color Monte (whoops - forgotten the name of the move and I don't have the book to hand. Ammar dispenses with that bit of it and - to my mind - the effect is much improved. I tried doing it with the "color monte" display of three and it looked very much like "over-proving" - now I just show the "blank faces" of the cards in a fan and it looks very natural.
Ross |
Dr Mage Veteran user Southern California 332 Posts
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I agree with Ross, Ammar's handling of the Virginia City Shuffle is very natural. I think that effect is the best in the series.
What is the color of magic?
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts
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Interesting.
I have simplified the Va. City Shuffle even further and I like it better still. At the beginning, right before he puts down the first card on the table from the triple he takes a double from the bottom to display a blank. Turns it over and puts one down. I do not do that. I just show all 3 blanks together and drop the top one. Nothing could be more convincing. Then I pick up the Ace that is already on the table and stuff it between the exposed blanks. It looks perfect. If you're showing 3 blank cards, why do a double from the bottom. That is suspicious and would certainly tip magicians that "something is going on" when nothing needs to be "going on". I'd enjoy hearing your comments about this.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Ross W Inner circle UK 1779 Posts
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Hey - good idea, Frank.
How about this: the first time, you just deal it down without showing it. The second time you do the DL and show it, but very casually, without making a move of it. It kind of cuts off one route of solution, without drawing attention to it. (And I don't mind about fooling magicians: I seldom perform for them, and who cares if they see what's going on?!) Ross |
Rolando Santos New user Atlanta, Ga. 86 Posts
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On 2002-08-14 03:36, RandyWakeman wrote: I agree strongly with Randy's points, but I want to carry it a bit further and say the same applies to books or written instructions with patter. Too many magicians take the path of least resistance (or least creativity) to their magic. They take the directions from the trick they bought and use them along with the patter the trick came with--then get totally frustrated when it doesn't work for them. There is no thought put in to how to make it better and easier or different. Innovation is not something you set out to do-- innovation usually comes in trying to make something easier, more comfortable for you to use or as part of finding a solution to a specific need you have to serve an audience. The most fun (and most creative I've been) has always resulted from viewing the material on a tape or a book as a starting point. I interject my views, values, life experiences into the magic to make it flow from me and part of me. I know this sounds "new age" so let me put it a different way. When you cook a meal you have the ingredients before you-- how you mix and match them and then how your present the meal reflects your tastes and goals. Looking at videos and books the same way will take you to new areas of magic, presentation and entertainment. and by the way don't forget to credit where the original idea or trick came from --- lack of attribution is the real sin. Rolando |
Geoff Weber Inner circle Washington DC 1384 Posts
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On 2002-08-15 09:50, Rolando Santos wrote: I think you should at least start out performing a trick with the patter as written or the way the video shows it. a Jazz musician learns a piece as written first, before they start to change it up. If you change it right off the bat, to use your cooking analogy, its like people who salt their food first without even tasting it. |
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Geoff Weber Inner circle Washington DC 1384 Posts
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and by the way don't forget to credit where the original idea or trick came from --- lack of attribution is the real sin. I agree with this if you are teaching a trick but in a performance context, I think this is not appropriate. I don't even like to say the name of the trick, because I feel it takes spectators out of the moment, and reminds them that magic isn't real. |
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Chris A. Inner circle AKA Chris A. 1123 Posts
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Quote: I totally agree.
On 2002-08-15 09:50, Rolando Santos wrote: Remember, even some of our greatest artists start of their careers by copying *as exactly as they can* the works of the masters. They then build their skills and knowledge base which allows them to develop their own style with a firm basis on which to build.
AKA Chris A.
Keepin' the Funk Alive |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts
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re;
"I agree with this if you are teaching a trick but in a performance context, I think this is not appropriate. I don't even like to say the name of the trick, because I feel it takes spectators out of the moment, and reminds them that magic isn't real." I'm sure it was never meant in a performance context. As for saying the name of the trick, old time illusionists used to have the names of all their illusions in the programme! There is nothing wrong with saying, "I call this next experiment, "The Incredible Death Defying Stunt Card of Doom", or, "What I'm going to show you now is an illusion in miniature, it's called.." But I don't think I'd say, "For my next TRICK". In magic, like life, nothing is in black and white 
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Dr Mage Veteran user Southern California 332 Posts
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I think that your variation, Frank, does simplify things.
I don't perform for magicians (at least not very much). When I pull the double from the bottom, it is done very nonchalantly. I don't think anyone thinks anything of it. I've videoed myself doing it, and I still think it looks natural. What registers in the mind of the non-magician observer is that a blank card was set down.
What is the color of magic?
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Rolando Santos New user Atlanta, Ga. 86 Posts
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Re: attribution:
I was referring to lecturing, in books, in peronsal notebooks/notes and videos. I am sorry I should have made that clear. As for using patter as written. I am not looking down my nose at anyone who uses a trick or patter right out of the box. I do it too. By all means use it in the beginning stages, but then build on it. The point I was trying to make ( and failed) is that too often thinking, creativity and discovery never happen becuase the path of least resistence is to take what's given and use it rather --- making it a spring board whether the effect comes from a video, a book or a magic store trick. r |
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RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts
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Quote:
On 2002-08-15 16:18, Rolando Santos wrote: Most got it, Rolando. Few people would perform a "Chop Cup," introducing it as a prop by Al Wheatley, who performed under the stage name of "Chop Chop," then pointing up how their cup differs in construction from the poorly made Wheatley original . . . |
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Posted: Aug 14, 2002 04:56 am 
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