Hi everyone,
while messing around I came up with this move/control: left hand Mechanical grip, riffle down with your thumb asking spectator to say stop anywhere, pick up the upper half with right index finger and thumb to show the selection. While putting the top half of the deck back: You pull the selection down with the 3 other fingers and then shove the bottom half in the gap and close it. Now the selection is at the bottom. That's the basic idea.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wYGmpHe......=sharing

I tried to take a snap of what meant. Of course the bottom half should be in your left hand.

I'm sure this move has been invented by someone at some point. I would like to know it's origin. Thanks alot.

Greets from Germany.

(I hope I posted this in the right thread)

That's the "Kelly Bottom Placement"

Thanks a lot exactly what I'm looking for !

"The Ovette Master Move is a card sleight developed by (or attributed to) Joseph Ovette around 1927 to secretly place a chosen card on the bottom of the deck. It later reinvented as Kelly Bottom Placement."

No problem. Its a fun move to do. Just watch your angles.

If you're using it without a table, you may also want to check out Allan Ackerman's "Ackerman Varies Kelly." It's arguably far superior and eliminates the horrible front-side finger movement that can "almost" always be seen.

AsL

Isn't it also called the Ovette Master Move?

Harvey Rosenthal and Jack Birnman also had variations that avoided that give away front finger movement.

I did a quick search to explore these two other handlings a bit more. I believe Harvey Rosenthal's is called the Rosenthal Placement - Is this correct? Also, do you know if Jack Birnman's work on it was ever published?

Although I've never seen a handling that beats the naturalness and ease of a good Convincing Control, I will say that Steve Reynolds has a version that completely eliminates any tension in the fingers (because it doesn't rely on the fingers). I don't, however, think it's published.

Ackerman's certainly eliminates the claw grip and scoopiness of the usual handlings, but in doing so sacrifices the expediency of the Kelly/Ovette technique. His move always looked a little too studied and deliberate for my tastes.

Thanks for the fine evaluations of the moves, Rupert. But I wish you had not told me about something not published hehe.

Yes, the Rosenthal Placement sounds correct. As far as I know, Jack Birnman's handling has not been published ( although, material for a book was compiled, but a book has not been forthcoming ). I lived not far from Jack for many years before he passed away, so I learned the mechanics from him. Also, I illustrated a couple of Harvey Rosenthal's booklets in the '70's and learned his handling from him. Of the two, I found Harvey's handling to be a little more suited to my style. It was a very versatile move.

I agree. I have been fiddling with the Ackerman Varies Kelly recently. I've decided I'm just going to stick with the original Kelly Bottom Placement.

I'd implore you to consider another option. I'm not saying it never happens, but I RARELY see anybody do the Kelly Bottom Replacement convincingly. Then again, I also don't sit around watching other magicians all day - tho I wish I could!

I completely agree with Rupert: As written in Ackerman's original description of Ackerman Varies Kelly (in "The Esoterist"), it's a bit "too studied" and definitely sacrifices the expediency of the KBR. However, here are a few tips (that I use) to make the move a bit more "loose", less studied, and more expeditious than the original handling:

Assuming you're getting a spectator to peek a card, fairly dribble the cards from one hand to the other allowing the spectator to fairly call stop (instead of riffling down the deck with your thumb). In Ackerman's effect Face-Lift taught in Paul Harris's AoA Vol. 2, the selection is also noted by riffling the thumb down the side of the deck. For whatever reason, I just feel like riffling the deck with your thumb instead of dribbling the cards detracts away from the fairness of this particular sleight. Nonetheless - BEFORE beginning the dribble, position your hands in preparation to execute Ackerman Varies Kelly; meaning, your thumb at the back of the deck and your fingers at the front-end of the deck will likely need to be much farther to the right than how you usually dribble the deck. Repositioning your fingers between the dribble and the display of the card is a giveaway that something is about to happen. Personally, I position my ring finger on the outer-right corner of the deck and my middle finger directly beside it. I think the original handling also uses the pinky for front-concealment and to do the dirty work. I've found this to be overkill if you get your angles and finger placements correct.

As I lift the pack to show the card to be remembered, my other ringer finger is already being lifted to "point at" the card to be remembered. From this point, it's much easier to execute the move a bit more openly and comfortably. These minor tweaks are SUPER small: using 2 fingers in front of the deck instead of 3, dribbling the cards instead of riffling your thumb down the side of the deck, getting your ring finger in position to "point to" the selected card at the moment the card becomes visible to the spectator. But these small tweaks (for me) make the move a little less studied, more fair, and less cumbersome to execute.

Extra tidbit of info: I've seen a few people use Ackerman Varies Kelly and repeatedly forget that it's easy to accidentally cover the lower index of the card since it's naturally exactly where you want to point. Be careful about that.

Hope this helps a little...

AsL

ASL. I appreciate your thoughtful response on this. I will consider these points.

Good finesses, AsL. I should clarify that my post shouldn't be taken as a tacit endorsement of the KO move or any variants thereof. As I said before, I have yet to see any that look or feel better than a good Convincing Control.

Both Harvey Rosenthal's and Jack Birnman's variations of the Ackerman varies Kelly move eliminate the need to "point" to the stopped at card, thereby streamlining the process of side jogging the selected card. Also, with their variations, you can to choose to out jog a card or not. If you choose not to, it can be done just as fast as a Kelly bottom placement.

Thanks for sharing, Nicholas!

Birnman's variation hasn't been published, and Rosenthal's variation only seems to be found in the hard-to-find and massive Epilogue (or original 24+ magazine issues). Nonetheless, it's definitely good info to know. Besides what I may have come across (and forgotten about) in my hardcover editions of The Paulbearer's Review, I'm not familiar with Rosenthal's work. A quick Café (and google!) search shows he clearly had quite a few little-known gems. Although I wish I could say otherwise, it's simply not reasonable to add any more massive books to my collection at the moment - no matter how many gems they contain. I'll probably get lucky and come across the 10th issue of Epilogue at my local used bookstore

AsL

I hope Ernest Earick's one-handed Convincing Control ranks somewhere up there. It's about as fair, open, natural, and easy as it gets (after much practice)

Oh yes! I think it's hard to beat Dan and Dave's DMB technique. But Earick is certainly a close second.