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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
My thoughts on this and Silver king hit on it.
you must take your coins ,cards ect ect to bed with you. I have never seen anyone just roll out of bed and become a Artist of any kind vinny |
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Cohiba Special user Michigan 749 Posts |
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On 2005-01-23 16:32, tommy wrote: I'm with you Tommy. There are obvious impossibilities - no one is going to fly like a bird without some sort of assistance. I don't care how hard you flap your arms. Flying like that is an idea equivalent to running a 2 minute mile. It's not physically possible. If you lost both of your arms in an accident, you're not going to be a champion at thumb-war. However, if you lost one arm, most would say you're not going to ever be much of a magician either. If I lost an arm, I probably wouldn't do much with magic anymore, because that big of a handicap would take away a lot of the fun for me. I would probably find other hobbies that could be more fulfilling. But then you have a Rene Levand who determined to be a great magician anyway. Because he believed he could do it, he figured out a way, coming up with his own sleights etc. to overcome his handicap. We're not talking about being delusional and having your mind make delusions come true. We're talking about things within the realm of human capability. And I agree that even there, not all things are possible at all stages in life. I will never be a Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. HOWEVER - if I had the desire that Tiger had to play golf since I was 4 (or whenever it was he started playing) and practiced as much as he did, I would be in the PGA right now. His mind, and mental thinking was what made him the champion. To this day, he practices more than anyone else. It's not his physical qualities that make him practice, it's his mental ones. At the same time, a negative attitude will stunt you more than anything. If you don't think you're capable, you won't even try. Why in the world would you? And I believe this is the biggest part of the problem in this case. From choosing a name like "foolsnobody" to the theme of the entire OP, you can see that this is an issue. I'm not trying to come across in a bad way - we all fight negative thinking and feelings of inadequacy to some degree or another. But choosing a different attitude (it IS a choice) will drastically change your results. So much so that I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the only thing that limits you is your head. The point is that our minds are the single most important factor in anything we do. |
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zaki_rafih99 Regular user 164 Posts |
I agree with s2000.. be the best wrestler you can be
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robini Special user Michigan 684 Posts |
Who was it who said that everyone has talent at 20, it's not as easy to have it at 50 (or 60 or 70, or whatever) - or something like that? I was probably about 20 when I first read that somewhere and I think I may have sort of half-understood it at that time. Now that I'm past 50, I think I understand it somewhat better. I wonder if most of those here discounting certain "absolute" limitations haven't yet reached that "mark"?
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On 2009-07-02 10:58, Cohiba wrote: I think that the fact that there are inevitably "winners" and "losers" among those just as dedicated, just as practiced and determined, in any sport (or any endeavor) tends to cast some doubt on this assertion. How do you know that it isn't certain inborn physical (and/or mental) advantages that give the very best in any field of endeavor, including magic, the "edge" necessary to attain the level of success which they do, independent of their "dedication"? In fact, I think it's clear that variations in physical attributes (and possibly some inborn mental attributes as well) do give some a decided advantage over others, the more extreme examples, such as those you suggested yourself, only helping to prove this fact. No, it isn't Woods's "physical qualities" which "make him practice". However, it may only be in conjunction with those "qualities" that that practice has paid off for him to the extent that it has. In fact, I think your example ultimately proves the OP's contention. Having said that, as has been suggested above by others, including perhaps the OP himself, physical ability alone isn't the sole criterion for being a "great", or good, magician. But I think it's entirely realistic to recognize, as the OP has suggsted, that some of us are more "naturally limited" in some ways than are others. Again, your own "extreme" examples only prove this point, in my opinion. While one fewer hand may limit what one is physically capable of achieving, or at least make certain things more difficult to do, if to a somewhat lesser degree so can other "smaller" physical "limitations", such as smaller hands, shorter fingers, etc. The difference is only one of degree. |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Everyone in life isn't pre-ordained for greatness, nor is everybody able to achieve it.
However, old addages tend to be backed up by hard fact (which is how they become "old adages"), and the old adage that "practice makes perfect" is as true today as it ever has been. If you're not happy with your current level of achievement, then practice until you are happy with it. With playing cards, every minute they're out of your hands you're falling behind. There are certainly limits that come with an aging body, but generally speaking, a lack of practice far outweighs aging when finding you're lacking satisfaction with your own level of skill. |
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Cohiba Special user Michigan 749 Posts |
Well said Silverking.
Robini stated: "I think that the fact that there are inevitably "winners" and "losers" among those just as dedicated, just as practiced and determined, in any sport (or any endeavor) tends to cast some doubt on this assertion." I don't think this is really the case. I don't think the "losers" are just as dedicated. If they were, they wouldn't be losers. Sure, not everyone will end up at the same spot, but back to the PGA example - I believe anyone who practiced as hard as Tiger would at least be in the PGA, a remarkable accomplishment. It's an excuse that is growing more and more common in our country that passes the buck to luck, as opposed to good old hard work and passion. The majority of the "greats" out there had to overcome larger than average odds to eventually become great. It was the overcoming of those odds that made them into the great men and women they became. |
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craig fraley New user 5 Posts |
Sophia Loren said: “It’s 10% what you’ve got and 90% what they think you’ve got.”
When you’re performing: be it for a few friends or a paid gig, you’re acting the part of a Magician. You don’t have to be the greatest to act it. Remember, only you know about your limitations, not your (lay) audience. Above all, have fun with magic. If you’re having fun those around you will too. |
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robini Special user Michigan 684 Posts |
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On 2009-07-02 15:10, silverking wrote: Personally, I don't believe that anyone is "pre-ordained" for anything in life, but a full discussion of that might be beyond the scope of this forum. Quote:
However, old addages tend to be backed up by hard fact (which is how they become "old adages"), and the old adage that "practice makes perfect" is as true today as it ever has been. If "old addages [sic]" are backed up by hard fact, would that also be true of the old adage that says that "nobody's perfect"? But I don't think that there's any doubt that some are "more perfect" than others, nor that some achieve a certain level of "perfection" more readily than others. Indeed, some may reach a level others are innately incapable of reaching, for one reason or another, with any amount of practice. Quote:
If you're not happy with your current level of achievement, then practice until you are happy with it. I don't think anyone here has discounted the importance of practice. And certainly not the OP. In fact, I think his last paragraph offered rather sage advice, most importantly the portion I've boldfaced: Quote:
On 2005-01-23 14:44, foolsnobody wrote: As an simple example in order to make the point clear, using another poster's example of a one-handed magician -- such a magician might only be being blatantly unrealistic to hope to ever do a "perfect" two-handed pass, however, that doesn't preclude him from attempting to "perfect" a one-handed pass. Using this somewhat "extreme" example, I think conveys roughly the point that the OP was making, with which I whole-heartedly agree, based on reason and my own personal experience. Quote:
With playing cards, every minute they're out of your hands you're falling behind. Although I've been away from performing magic for the most part for the better part of 20 or 30 years until recently, in all that time a deck of cards has been in my hands almost every opportune moment, and I've been practicing various moves for decades for many hours at a time. Some of those moves I feel I've possible come as close as humanly possible to "perfecting", while others, which I've practiced with just as much dedication, after all those decades I still probably wouldn't be bold enough to try to fool a legally blind person with them. Again, I think it's just about recognizing that we're all different, and with those differences, we all have our own "natural" strength and weaknesses. To perhaps oversimplify a little, I think that's really all the OP was saying. Never was he or anyone else here discounting the importance of practice, as far as I can tell. |
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robini Special user Michigan 684 Posts |
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On 2009-07-02 15:24, Cohiba wrote: So do you think that he would have attained just as high a level of success as a basketball player, had he been just as dedicated to it from as early an age? How tall is he, by the way, do you know? |
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Cohiba Special user Michigan 749 Posts |
I believe he would be in the NBA. Spud Webb (sp?) was well under 6'.
Never underestimate the power of perseverance. Keeping in mind that you need to have enough intelligence to be able to discern delusion from reality. |
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robini Special user Michigan 684 Posts |
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On 2009-07-02 15:59, Cohiba wrote: Of course, we might consider that both height and "practice" might be only two factors among many which might help enable one to be in the NBA. But do you suppose there might be any logical reason why most of those in the NBA may be over six feet? Do you suppose maybe shorter people just tend to be less "dedicated"? Quote:
Never underestimate the power of perseverance. Keeping in mind that you need to have enough intelligence to be able to discern delusion from reality. While at first blush I wasn't sure what "the intelligence to discern delusion from reality" has to do with the subject, on second thought it occurs to me that that might be one way to paraphrase what the OP said. |
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Adam1975 Special user UK 900 Posts |
Blimey a semi serious and mildy thought provoking thread! Its giving me a headache...cant we just stick to "which are best,red or blue bikes"
Ive upped my standards.Now,up yours!
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DomKabala Inner circle I've grown old after diggin' holes for 2827 Posts |
Has anyone taken the time to look at the OP's profile...specifically his occupation ? His mind is made up...
Cardamagically, Dom
We don't stop playing when we grow old...we grow old when we stop playing.
God is enough, let go, let God. Gal 2:20 "Anything of value is not easily attained and those things which are easily attained are not of lasting value." |
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pearljamjeff Inner circle Ann Arbor 1247 Posts |
I don't think anyone has talked about what I believe to be the most important part of the discussion. In all art forms, "skill" is only one part of the picture. Do you think Picasso could have painted a DaVinci? Do you think Jimi Hendrix could rip a Steve Vai guitar solo? I don't think it can be argued that DaVinci or Vai have more technical skill than their counterparts, but I still know many many people who prefer Picasso or Jimi for reasons bigger than technical prowess.
Sure, you have to have some level of discernible skill, and the original poster talks about having some workable sleights. You can do a lot of good card magic without a faro. Trust me; I can't do one to save my life. I've also don't practice it much. I find my time better spent with different aspects of the art. I've mastered the sleights I need right now. I focus on keeping the basics polished, and focus on connecting with my audience. I may come back to the faro or an in-hands false riffle shuffle someday, but for now, they just aren't necessary. Plenty of magic is not "knuckle-busting." Mentalism comes to mind. In mentalism, the art is in your persona and character. If technical skills aren't your forte, maybe acting is? Find what suits you, but make sure you love it!
Jeff Travilla - I own an advertising agency to help finance my magic addiction.
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Steve Friedberg Inner circle 1402 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-07-02 10:56, vinsmagic wrote: Vinny: You're forgetting the famed poet who could do exactly what you just described. He'd wake up, roll out of bed and immediately begin writing superb poetry. He went from bed to verse. As did this post.
Cheers,
Steve "A trick does not fool the eyes, but fools the brain." -- John Mulholland |
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giobbi1 Loyal user 252 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-07-02 15:24, Cohiba wrote: I disagree. There ARE golfers who have started as early as Tiger and have practiced just as much, but they will never be as good as him. The fact is, some people have an inate ability to excel at something that other people will never have. There are a LOT of golfers on the PGA...there is only ONE Tiger. Some people just have a gift and then they learn to nurture it. |
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foolsnobody Special user Buffalo, NY 843 Posts |
Seeing this old thread revived I thought I'd drop in. First, the lack of feeling in my fingertips is somewhat better since 2005 because I got my blood sugar under better control. So even though I no longer have the "touch" I can do most of what I could do before, with the exception of "touch" moves such as *glide* (!) yes glide, second deal, or side steal (even though my Golden Touch lotion helps some).
I think silverking is right, though, and at one time I *was* that dedicated. Before that I was even more dedicated to playing guitar during the late fifties and early sixties...picked it up every spare moment, learned off records, played through the blisters that eventually became calluses. I believe that if I had stayed that dedicated to both these hobbies of mine that even if I had lost some of it over the years I'd still be *** good But you have to work at it during that middle period between the initial infatuation and senility. Kind of like a marriage...on second thought, I don't think I'll go there...;-) |
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Cohiba Special user Michigan 749 Posts |
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On 2009-07-06 12:23, giobbi1 wrote: My point wasn't that they would be as good as Tiger, but that they would be playing at the professional level - which is a huge accomplishment in itself, and one that any amateur golfer would gladly trade for their current profession. And I seriously doubt other players practice (or have practiced) as much as he. To this day he is known to practice way more than the competition - he stays on the course practicing for 3 hours after his competition has left. Obviously there will never be another Michael Jordan. But most people believe that, so they don't even try. If Jordan had listened to his high school coach who cut him, he would never have become arguably the greatest basketball player ever. As for the height issue - yes, it makes a difference. And because of that, most people don't feel like basketball is worth pouring your life into if you're not extremely tall. The ones that push on against all odds end up achieving greatness. I believe that if people didn't accept that limitation as an "end-all" weakness, there'd be more Spud Webbs out there. |
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gadfly3d Special user 963 Posts |
While after doing magic for close to 40 years I have to conclude that in the words of Clint Eastwood "A man's got to know his limitations". However that said one does have to be wary of assuming that those limits are set in stone.
What I found interesting in the original post was what was seen as excellence. Which it seems like it's doing tough moves and excelling at sleights and also being creative. Now this is a legitimate approach but in my mind its majoring in the minors. Real magic is about performance and bringing the technical and creative work of the Marlo's and others to life. So maybe a path to follow is to ask the question "How can I find an audience and what can I do to entertain them?" Gil Scott |
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The Mac Inner circle 1982 Posts |
On a lighter note:
Copperfield cant palm card ( ask jay sankey) blaine cant smile criss angel cant do magic without final cut pro editing software paul Harris cant find his little man luke jermay cant refund money |
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