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Big Bad Baz
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I could not be that arrogant.
I will always strive and seek to do my best with everything but I could never put any of it on par with Jesus.
ThePartyMagician
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Hey there Big Bad Baz!

I didn't think you were trying to put yourself on a par with Jesus. Smile

Jesus used stories to illustrate His message, all you were saying is that you also used stories. So do I. So do all magicians...

No problem as far as I see it!

Kind regards
Mike
Leland Stone
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Hiya, Magi:

Parables were not meant to explain anything -- Jesus used parables to HIDE the truth, not to make it plain. Matthew 13:10-13, Luke 8:10.

Sincerely,
Leland Stone
Big Bad Baz
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Thanks MIke.
Hi Leland, Sorry to sound think but I'm not sure what your point is??
See ya
Baz
Leland Stone
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My point is that in citing Jesus as the model of our words, actions, or thoughts, we should do so properly. It is a common misconception to claim that Jesus' parables were explicative in nature, when in fact they were not. There may be a basis for illustrating truth with a story or a trick, but it isn't found in the parables.

Leland
Big Bad Baz
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I said, When Jesus was reinforcing a message or point he told a story. I never said the story would explain it better or that it would be a great revelation or even understood.
So I still fail to see your point?
apart from that I don’t particularly want to get into any theological debate. I’m just a dumb Magician. God gives me the opportunities to illustrate the gospel and that’s what I do. in fact tomorrow I’m doing a school assembly and there will be around 1500 kids I just tell that that God loves them.
Bill Hallahan
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Leland Stone wrote:
Quote:
I would ask in turn, "Why Gospel Magic?" Why blend the two into a hybrid that dilutes one and may improperly elevates the other? Paul didn't do sleight of hand, yet I understand he was rather successful in communicating the Good News.

I saw Andrew Kole perform years ago. He didn’t copy the miracles that Jesus did, and several times during his performance he drew a distinction between his illusions and the reality of God’s miracles. In other words, he didn’t blend the idea of illusions and miracles, but rather he used his presentation to separate them.

Majiloon wrote:
Quote:
We are dealing with an arena as defined as the THEATER OF DECEIT —where we involve the theater of the mind by stimulating the imagination as a form of entertainment.

If presented properly, magic is merely the deception of the senses, not deception of the mind. That’s not deceit at all. It is deceit when the audience is not privy that tricks are being used, so Gospel magicians should make that clear. Andrew Kole certainly did that.

Personally, I’m uncomfortable with certain theatrical presentations where the Gospel performer plays the part of Jesus in a non-Biblical story. But I also realize that God calls people to do things that I might not understand. So, with the obvious caveats, I accept a performer's word that he or she has received a true calling.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
Clifford the Red
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Quote:
On 2005-02-15 10:17, Leland Stone wrote:
Jesus used ----- to HIDE the truth.


Funny, don't magicians hide truth as well?
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Majiloon
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Nothing funny here--- maybe it’s time for a nap…

On a serious note- Leland- I very much like your input- I have a question,

Didn’t Jesus tell parables in order to convey spiritual precepts to those followers who – of course were ALL carnal minded- even the disciples?

Therefore this is not a deceptive approach at all- but a “creative” one. One of only a few that will work with the carnal mind.

I agree absolutely with Lou- that we cannot assume to have the authority to make up stories to try to do the same- (if I understand you correctly).

Cheers,
Kelly Duro
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Leland Stone
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Hiya, Kelly:

No, Scripture is very clear on this point: Jesus used parables to keep truth hidden. It was only later, in private discussion with His disciples, that the meaning of the parables was made clear.

I do not mean or imply that Jesus spoke or taught deceptively, rather, my only point continues to be as I have stated in previous posts: It is a common misconception that Jesus' parables were intended to illuminate truth, when in fact the opposite is true.

Whatever value Gospel Magic may have, my past few posts were intended only to note what the NT states regarding parables.

Leland
Majiloon
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Thanks Leland,

(let me apologize in advance for this being long)

However I respectfully disagree with the notion that Jesus used deception, or that Jesus hid the truth in the parables. These arguments do not hold up anything in order to support the notion that we could apply the same kind of principles of parables to justify our magic today. Do we assume this authority?! Below are some dusty study notes that I kept- and I will include them here to help comprehend what parables really were about.

I believe it is a common mistake to approach the bible without being mindful of the influence of the Western culture within our crowded minds. We must always exercise deliberate application of context to history, culture, prophesy and literal context with regard to scripture always interpreting scripture. (i.e. 'Continuity' of scripture – passage, lesson, or idea being confirmed in old and new testament)

In Jesus words- he tells us why he uses parables-Matthew 13:10-35 10 But with respect to Leland I believe the opposite is true to your earlier post.

(Isaiah 54:13, NKJV). "He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths" (Isaiah 2:3, NKJV).

In order to fulfill the prophesy from Isaiah and establish hearers and those of closed ears/hearts- To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear (Luke 8:10)

It’s important to know that when Jesus preached so strikingly in parables, he did not create a new literary genre. Rather, he made brilliant use of a genre which was already of long tradition and which was familiar to all throughout the Mediterranean world. In Greece and Rome, parables were employed by rhetoricians, politicians and philosophers. Perhaps the most illustrious among those who made use of them were Socrates and Aristotle. An interesting question is to what extent the classical parables are like those of the Bible. (read Aristotle's discussion of the parable in The "Art" of Rhetoric, Book II.) In Israel, parables were uttered by prophets and wise women and men. They appear even in the oldest books of the Old Testament. Parables were often used by Jewish rabbis who were contemporaries of Jesus

His parables are like buried treasure waiting to be discovered (Matt. 13:44).

The word parable merely means comparison. A placing side by side, or comparing earthly truths, expressed, with heavenly truths to be understood. But in Jesus use, it means the illustration of spiritual truths by comparison with happenings in ordinary life to help people understand a concept. In other words, what Jesus is treating in the parables is not individual moral offenses, breaches of the 10 commandments for instance, but the states of the soul from which all sins flow, spiritual emptiness, spiritual excess. He was teaching not about fig trees but about men. Those who are ready to learn will understand. The synoptic gospels contain 40 parables.

The purpose of Jesus' parables is to introduce the mysteries of the kingdom of God or heaven. The thing signifying and the thing signified are united together. The parable is often an expanded proverb, and the proverb is a condensed parable. Jesus' parables are not mere illustrations, but internal analogies, nature becoming a witness for the spiritual world; whatever is found in the earthly exists also in the heavenly kingdom. Jesus was teaching parables to those who had ears to hear.

Jesus explained the purpose of parables Himself. "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.

That seeing they may see and not perceive and hearing they may hear and not understand, lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them."

Even this explanation of parables may indeed be a parable unto itself. What He meant is that these can only be understood by those *(willing) to learn with spiritual eyes and spiritual ears to hear and see and understand. Those who cannot bring themselves to come to the light to expose their own sins will not understand and be not converted.

Was Jesus concealing the truth by the use of the parables? No,

He was revealing the truth, but in a way, only to those *capable to open their eyes and ears to the truth in faith. Then the spirit would guide them into all truth and those who choose to be blind and deaf to His words will not understand.

*(I use capable instead of "willing" as per the Reformed view , reference- T.U.L.I.P- but if you want ot use the word willing- that's okay for now)

The use & intent of parables by Jesus as it pertains to the context of his ministry needs to be taken in context for what and why it is- and there is no license or authority given for loose application of the principles today in a magic presentation that I can see.
Unless you want to testify of God within your life and illustrate it...

Thanks for reading, Cheers,
Kelly Duro
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SonSHINE
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Greeting's,
I may catch #$%^ for saying this.........But think of it this way.....Jesus had a split personality...Really TWO natures 100% God 100% Man. That being said When He spoke He would explain a spiritual truth by using everyday terms { of that day } to help the people understand Bible teaching's.. We just try to do the same ....
Quote:
You can only keep, That which you give away........
Holy Spirit
Lee Darrow
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I use several parables in my shows, even though I am not a Gospel magician, by any means. They always start out the same way and have a funny finish... "A pair of bulls were standing in a pasture..."

Sorry, got tempted there... I'll be okay in a second...

;)

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Leland Stone
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Hiya, Kelly:

The very plain reading of Scripture, supported both by your own exegesis and the Reformed tradition, is that parables were used by Jesus to hide the truth, not illuminate it. Even the disciples required tutoring to understand the parables' meaning, thereby fulfilling both the Isaiaic prophecy you cited and the principle of Scriptural perspicuity (cf I Cor 2:15).

I appreciate your opinion, but is there any Reformed commentator (Sproul, Boettner, Spurgeon, Calvin) who disagrees with my understanding of Scripture's description of the parables' intent -- that they were meant to conceal, rather than to explain, truth?

Just to be very clear, I do not perform Gospel Magic, and nothing I've posted should be understood as a defense of, or justification for, such Magic. My comments are addressing only my beliefs concerning the nature of parables.

Except for the following, which is addressing Lee Darrow: You probably know the Early Church was quite small and drove a Honda. They were all in one...accord!
And that Noah was the first great market speculator? Yep, he floated his stock while the rest of the world liquidated...

Leland
Winks
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Leland - sorry to disagree with you (but then I am a Lutheran pastor/theologian, so it's my nature) but Jesus never tried to hide truth in his parables. He used parables to enable us to understand deep truths of the kingdom of God. A listener needed to hear with faith, however, to understand. Consider - Jesus often said, "let him who has ears, listen". Other times he chided his disciples for not understanding. And, if he were hiding truth, why did the Pharisees get so angry at some of the parables when Scripture says that they understood the point of that parable was directed at them? Jesus told his disciples on several occasions not to talk about his miracles or what happened to him (as on the Mount of Transfiguration), at least until after his resurrection, but that was so people would receive him by faith as Savior, not as some magician/miracle worker. The miracles were to validate his authority, as the Son of God, to forgive, not the other way around. And his parables were to illuminate the truths of God's Kingdom. And I have read Spurgeon and Calvin extensively. No where do I find them commenting that Jesus hid the truth.
Big Bad Baz
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Hey Guy's how about forgetting it?? get out have a good time and stop running around in circles, life’s too short. You’re not going to change anyone’s views here. Leland, we all have our interpretation of the scriptures but we just don’t bang on about it like you. Just because you keep repeating your view it doesn’t mean its right. At the end of the day it's not what you know that gets you to heaven it's who you know.. And Leland, don't start analyzing that just take it at face value, you can you know, God will still love you.
Leland Stone
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Hiya, Winks:

No need to apologize for disagreeing -- civil, reasoned disagreement can only lead to growth, maturity, and the re-examination of one's position. It is always possible and sometimes likely for me to be mistaken; therefore, feel free to disagree.

In the case of the Matthaic passage I've cited, there are several key terms: "Knowledge," which in this context refers to truth, "given," meaning bestowed or granted, "you," referring to the disciples (analogous to the church), "not them," the non-disciples (analogous to those outside the church). The meaning of the passage is clear: Truth is being given to one group, withheld from another. The same means of transmission is used in both instances (the parables), yet without explanation from God the knowledge remained unknown to the non-disciples. As you have exegeted, the key unlocking this knowledge is faith, graciously given by God to His disciples and by extension the church, but that doesn't alter the prior and plain understanding posted earlier: Truth was hidden for a long time, then revealed and explained to one group, but not to another.

Sincerely,
Leland Stone

Interested Magi: In the end, of course, the only interpretation that matters is the one God intended. The closer any discussion of Scriptural matters brings us to that meaning, the better we are able to fulfill our duty to love God "with all your heart...soul...and mind." [Matt 22:37]
illusions & reality
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Hi Leland,

I appreciate your spirit in this. I do believe at TIMES the message was hidden from hearers, and Jesus explained the spiritual truth to His followers. However, to say that Jesus did not use parables to teach the crowds ignores the whole counsel of Scripture.

If your theory of interpretation is correct regarding all of the parables that Jesus used, how do you explain Matthew 21:33-46 (see NAS version below), where the Pharisees understand exactly what Jesus is saying in this parable, and were angered because of it?

"33 "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED R774 A VINEYARD R775 AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 34 "When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. 35 "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. 36 "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. 37 "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, `They will respect my son.' 38 "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, `This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 "Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?" 41 They said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons." 42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, `THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'? 43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44 "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust." 45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. 46 When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet."

Scripture is not always "either/or." Sometimes it is "both/and."

Lou
BroDavid
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This topic has moved from a Gospel Dilemma related to magic, to a theological exegesis and interpretation of scripture relating to how Jesus used the parables.

Unfortunately that takes the discussion from Magic to Theology and this is a forum to discuss Magic and it's application.

So in order to allow magic discussions, this topic has been closed for further discussion.

BroDavid
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