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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Just imagine a group of women discussing the egos of Male Magicians. Or topics on how to perform during metapause or, The Secrets of Daycare Deduction while performing, or Abuse of Female Assistants, or a variety of other topics.
I am not in favor of segregation, however, in a male domanated business, there seems to be a need to focus on women in magic, because I really don't think any of the big conventioneers will ever go in this direction or even entertain topics related to women in magic. One will only know of it success when they trys it. Will there be enough interest?
Dennis Michael
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I think it is a good idea. There will always be issues common to female magicians that are not of interest to male magicians--specific problems with costuming and pockets for example. I don't believe that it is wrong to recognize the distinct needs of women performers who can help each other from their own experiences and insights.
It is not sexism to form an interest group. If male magicians had unique problems that were not being addressed in the various forums available--something I haven't seen yet--they would be justified in forming a group oriented toward those issues. Moreover, Sophie Evans pointed out to me the built-in sexism that is apparent in most club and convention shows where a female act is considered a separate "category" of act--"We have a manipulator, a dove act, and an illusionist; we need a lady magician..." With this mentality, there is always only room for one female performer on a show. A woman-oriented magic convention, not having these sorts of sexist biases, would be able to showcase many more women magicians who can be models and inspirations for others. Until the time comes when women and men are equally represented in this field, I believe that some sort of special outlet for women to help and inspire each other will be necessary. |
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CamelotFX Special user Minnesota 596 Posts |
Well, I hope I didn't sound demeaning because that wasn't my intent. I draw no distinctions between female magicians and male magicians but I tend to find female magicians more entertaining largely because of the personas they adopt (notice I didn't say: "...are forced to adopt" because I don't believe that's true) and would rather watch Joycee Beck than, let's say, anybody, because she's engaging and just plain fun to watch.
But, okay, I'll admit that there are issues in magic that women need to address. Here's a magic issue and it's this month's issue of "Magic," in fact! Right off the bat, I'm hit with ads for: Page four: The "Baffling Bra Trick" from Loftus. Page ten: Baxt's "Computer Cutie" (also involving the removal of a brassiere, duh...) Now, these are obviously tricks designed to be performed by guys to titillate guys and I can't see Joycee Beck doing them. I also don't see too many guys as amused by Joycee's "Linking Coat Hangers" as I am, especially with her "Donna Reed in Wonderland" persona, so her audience is, indeed, a mostly-female audience with the exception of myself and a few enlightened guys who know good showmanship when we see it. But are women up-in-arms about the trend in "sexist" tricks? Page through the rest of the magazine and then answer this question: What do these magical women have in common? Nani Darnell Charlotte Pendragon Salli Hapner Sarah Burton Snakebabe August Answer: They're all "Lovely Assistants," basically props. They get levitated, sawed in half, vanished or choreographed into tony dance routines in revealing outfits. While I like tony dance routines and am fond of revealing outfits, I always feel badly watching these shows. I think that those women could probably do a pretty good show on their own, but they've got one problem to solve: What to do with their headliner husbands during the act? Now if I was chairing the WIM Convention, those are the kinds of issues I'd be up on a chair about. Hey, I'm a feminist and I've come a long way, baby! |
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Suzanne New user Minneapolis 96 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-02-08 15:31, CamelotFX wrote: I don't think you sounded demeaning sarcastic maybe But I probably would have answered it about the same way. Quote:
Now if I was chairing the WIM Convention, those are the kinds of issues I'd be up on a chair about. Hey, I'm a feminist and I've come a long way, baby! Ah! Well there is part of the problem. I wonder if the men who are 'against' having a separate conference for women are thinking "Oh they are a bunch of feminist who are going to spend all their time male bashing." Let me put you all at ease. We don't even talk about you guys. We support each other on our paths to become better magicians. And then there is the nude jello wresting/pillow fights on the trampolines. |
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Suzanne New user Minneapolis 96 Posts |
Ooops forgot to add this to my last post.
:) |
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travisb Special user Vancouver, BC 546 Posts |
I like Brad's thinking on this--especially the bit about "safe places." As for the "victim premise," I don't think that CamelotFX is right about that. Saying that magic is dominated by men does not necessarily mean that you're coming from a place of victimhood. Denying reality because of a sense of not wanting to appear to be a victim would be silly.
Also, saying that anything that "alludes to the inequality of the sexes" is "counterproductive to human existence" is a bizarre idea. What should you do instead? If there's a problem, you try to fix it, no? If conferences and such can help make things better for women magicians, then why not? -Travis |
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CamelotFX Special user Minnesota 596 Posts |
On 2005-02-08 22:34, Suzanne wrote:
Quote:
We support each other on our paths to become better magicians. We seem to have achieved a meeting of the minds. Becoming better magicians is something that we Y-chromosome folks are interested in as well. Presentation, routining, showmanship and, oh yes, the geek-in-the-shop-with-the-welding-torch-building-the-wallet-to-Humvee-gag (that's me). It's all part of entertainment. It's just that there's this male audience (myself included) that sees the cover story on Larry Wilson in this month's "Magic Magazine" and gets to the photo on page 50. Holy hormones, look at those girls! Yipes! Hubba-hubba-hubba and how many frequent flier miles have I got to get a plane ticket to Reno? Guys can't DO that! No fair! Or maybe they could. I don't even know Snakebabe's real name. Maybe it's Mary. How much box office would "Mary and the Steelhunk" draw? |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
As I was reading I got to this post by JT
How about separate clubs for black women in magic, and asian women in magic, and while we're at it let's segrigate the women over 40 in magic too. If this seems the slightest absurd or wrong to you, then the basic premis may as well be considered absurd too. The only winners in the "seperate but equal" game are the ones that pander to that way of thinking. Everyone else loses. Women in magic who don't do linking rings? And that was exactly what I was thinking to point out. Although it seems acceptable for disabled people to have their own club or gathering. The point about why girls grow out of magic is a good question. My answer by observation and people research is this. Males will use the basic premise of magic (I do not include males who study magic as a true interest or stage act, only those who learn for other reasons...) to boost their social status by impressing other people. women tend to use other methods to boost their social status, by cliques and relationships where character assesment and bonding are important and thus do not need magic. The performance of magic by a female is still psychologically linked to witches and the dark arts by women themselves. Male magic is seen more as a beating of ones chest in public, female magic is seen as more tangible and intimate and this can only be done by women of certain character types.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
Re: Male Magic is seen beating of ones chest in public.
Right...so for a performer like me, who believes that especially close up magic can be, (and is very rewarding presented so), soft, sensual, subtle, and evokative...the male conquest oriented, machoism, I'm better than you are, crap, can get very annoying. While I am rather inclined to agree with Jonathan about segregation, they don't seem to be segregating, at all. Rather, the ladies' mission statment is the promotion of Magic as a "powerful, feminine, Art"...a concept I'm hard pressed to disagree with. that's a little strange, too, actually...I simply believe that Magic as an Art relies on an undercurrent of abilities, concepts, and possibilites which in the modern world have become identified with women and homosexual. As a heterosexual male, I take exception to some of these stereotypes, except to the extent that I see in my generation especially, an increasing lack of capacity for feeling, emotion, intelligence (with the mark of intelligence perhaps being the ability to hold two opposing ideas in one's mind at the same time without seeing anything wrong with it...dogma pervades our youth, and on up...), style, conversational ease... It seems to me that vanity, hubris, I'm not sure what all, are causing some of these deficencies in Men. When our aim is self-expression, and the creation of an environment where significant communication becomes possible...capacity for feeling, unabashed expression of it to others, and rather hearty confidence seem to be required. Certainly plenty of women have the same problems as men in these areas, but as I say, it seems in modern times, they have become more identified with strengths in these areas. (Women in media these days are continually portrayed as more intelligent, more socially adept, they teach the bumbling man how to dance, how to dress, etc). While, again, I take exception to this stuff, and wonder how much it may be a self-fufilling prophecy, thirty years of it making it true, it would certainly seem to support in modern language the idea that magic is a feminine Art...enough anyways that a website dedicated to examining seems a fine idea. And I believe women as a group have an enormous amount of potential in Magic. I also believe, however, that there are many men in this community who fall into less traps commonly associated with masculinity, and use their whole personality, including their sex, to an advantage. I have never seen any magician here perform, but I have met a dozen or two fellows, spoken with them, and they seem to be sublimely unburdened with issues of femininity/masculinity, (and I'm sure a few might take exception to the nature of this post), and are simply wonderful magicians, more so because they have the ability to conduct themselves with tolerable fluency in social situations. It is of little suprise to me that these people are amongst the "names" in the magic community, what puzzles me is why so many people emulate so perfectly the works they have wrought, without paying the slightest care to the bearing and personalities which see such things into fruition. After all, in olden times, the traditional gentlemen, at sea perhaps, called upon to be the head of a table, could (and I stress *could*), turn a dinner party into an absolute work of Art, the equal of any of the great hostesses in Europe...but the next morning fight a desicive battle, be "masculine" in the extreme. What I mean by that, I suppose, is that while I am prejudice against all groups and no individuals, I think both men and women have a place in magic. I think masculinity can be very wonderful in the peformance of it; I simply believe that we need to also understand and use concepts which in the current regime are considered feminine, AND importantly, it seems currently that the magic community is drenched with the wrong sort of masculinity. How many disparaging terms do we hear for spectators? I shiver in advance of the day when a magician calls spectators "bitches". I'm not sure what has propogated these performance styles amongst so many in magic, but I guess it seems that magic was sold as a subsitute for social skills to teenagers, a voice for men who could not speak to women, and as a social bludgeon to others I hope never to meet. Certainly, I can't count the men (or more properly, boys) I know who bought a guitar at one time or another, in an effort to "pick up chicks", or "get laid"...but the difference is that in order to hold an audience with a guitar, you have to obviously know what you are doing...There are some aspects of magic with regards to portability, use with common objects, and nearly unlimited possiblity for contextual links which I believe to be enormous, HUGE strengths...but in the wrong, or inexpierienced hands, these powers can be quite dangerous. Good luck to the girls in question, anyhow...it may be that their site is more to discussion issues of clubs, gigs, conventions, and related prejudices, and such in the community. CLubs and conventions, "the fraternity", etc, are of little relevance in my world, so I cannot say whether this would seem benifical, or no...but I am pressed to find anything harmful in the matter. Moreover, perhaps they will seriously discuss aspects of the Art, as I'm trying to say above, which do not get properly discussed in these male dominated forums, and are stereotypically being considered more and more, feminine. |
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johnnymystic Inner circle North Adams Ma. 1576 Posts |
Hey Hoop nice post, very well said. I was one of those guy's that bought a guitar in hopes of impressing ONE certain girl, hehehe...alas it never worked out between us, but I still got a guitar. My kids think I'm nut's, a 35 yr. old father jammin' out Metallica riff's, Lol!
Been to the Pig lately? johnny
I drink cheap tequila and vomit
<BR>I cannot eat hot wings...acid reflux <BR>I never inhale <BR>I can put a field dress on a deer |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
I think you will find that men and women are different, thus is nature.
With man and woman there are preconceptions ingrained in over 50% of people. they make an absoloute judgement based on preconceptive data. ie. All men are pigs or All women are cows. so that is 50%+ population of earth have made up their minds and aint gonna change it. Women should intergrate with men on the subject of magic. The has been so much ground covered by males, that learning from us would get you up to speed in a flash and then you can bust your skills on an unsuspecting public. I think there is a market for a good female TV magician, Any takers?
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-02-10 14:42, Partizan wrote: How about Princess Tenko? Posted: Feb 10, 2005 3:27pm --------------------------------------------- Quote:
On 2005-02-10 14:42, Partizan wrote: Where do you get these figures? |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
In the first half of the nineteenth century, magic was primarily a parlor game and entertainment, practised as much by women as men.
As magic became increasingly associated with the professional stage, it lost appeal among women--well bred women would not want to be associated with actors and stage performers. Even so, there were numbers of well-known and highly regarded female performers--Ionia, Mdm Hermann, Talma, etc. The dominance of men in the field of grand illusion in the era of the turn of the century had many reasons, among them the difficulties of a woman working in a tough male-dominated business at a time when they could not vote, could not sign contracts, own property, etc. The image of the magician as a male figure, especially the stereotype of the mephistopholean character with a goatee and imps and devils on the shoulder arose from this period--primarily through the notoriety and popularity of H. Kellar and Alex Hermann. It was the celebrity and success of these few performers that created this image--not some ancient archetype. These prejudicial images of what a magician should look and sound like have to be overcome by every magician that doesn't follow that model--not just women performers. In this sense, Houdini could be considered quite a modern and iconoclastic figure--athletic, scientific, and modern in every way--hardly the Faustus type with devils on the shoulder. Part of Doug Henning's success was based on his shattering of these stereotypes from the beginning of the century. David Copperfield and David Blaine both did a lot to crack these stereotypes. Don't assume that the stifling prejudices that many hold with regard to the proper roles of men and women are particularly ancient or immutable. They just seem that way because they are what we grew up with. In ancient and medieval cultures, Circe, the priestesses of Delphi, the witch of Endor, and other female magic workers would probably come to mind when magic was mentioned long before any male practitioners would. It wasn't until the rise of alchemy and male magicians in the middle ages when Tristemegistus, Faust and other male models for magician become dominant in the popular mind. In fact, the Faustus of literature and opera was probably the forerunner of the modern stereotype of "the magician." I think that the history of women in magic has been long obsured by the prejudices of male writers and collectors, and that women need to work together to overcome some of these misconceptions and stereotypes--misconceptions and stereotypes that they have been brought up with and misled by in this culture every bit as much as the men. |
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BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts |
You are allowed to put more than one thing in the same post, Whit
Beth asked for pros and cons and I concur with Partizan. Pro: It might be a nice little club with a nice little atmosphere that some people may enjoy. No harm in that. Con: You won't improve or learn in the wider sense by segregation. So you've got smaller hands, or kids bothering you, or whatever problem you think most women are more likely to have than most men. You don't need a seperate "women in magic board" to hammer out some answers. Start a thread here or on a large board. It really depends what you want out of life. Do you want the best advancement or do you want a nice natter. On a segregated board you are only likely to get the latter. On a big mixed board like this, you can have both. |
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Suzanne New user Minneapolis 96 Posts |
Hi BlackShadow
Thanks for answering both the pro and the con of the convention. I would like to discuss your comment for the con. Quote:
Con: You won't improve or learn in the wider sense by segregation. I disagree because anytime you are able to get another view of something you will improve. Quote:
So you've got smaller hands, or kids bothering you, or whatever problem you think most women are more likely to have than most men. You don't need a seperate "women in magic board" to hammer out some answers. Start a thread here or on a large board. Good idea about starting a thread here except then we get too many (and one is too many) guys out there who are not respectful of our issues. All there needs to be is for one person (like Dr. Magic) to say something as hurtful as "women do magic like they throw" and the young girls who try to post here are shut down. I don’t care if he was joking, I don’t care if he was just trying to start something, it’s still going to shut them down. Women who have been in magic for a long time and know what guys like him are about can disregard his stupid comments but a young girl getting into magic, looking for answers and acceptance probably can't. That's why we need a place like the WIM board. Quote:
It really depends what you want out of life. Do you want the best advancement or do you want a nice natter. On a segregated board you are only likely to get the latter. On a big mixed board like this, you can have both. We are not looking at this as "segregation". That makes it sound like an either or. Just because there is a WIM conference or WIM message board doesn't mean we aren't interested in also being attendees at other conferences and/or being members of other boards. Close up magicians are limited if they only see close up magic and stage magicians are limited if they only see stage magic. But I will bet if there is a Close Up Magic Convention or a Close Up magic board, close up magicians are going to be participating more than the stage magicians. Women magicians will be limited if they only see male magicians perform/lecture. We also need a place to talk about things that are unique to us. Like close up magicians need to talk about things that are unique to close up magicians and stage magicians need to talk about things that are unique to stage magicians. I find this thread so interesting. So many people are looking at this as a "segregation" issue. Why can't it just be a "people trying to find their niche" issue? Why can't it be a "like minded people looking for like minded people" issue? Thanks for listening. Suzanne |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-02-08 07:26, DenDowhy wrote: And we wonder why more women aren't interested in magic
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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travisb Special user Vancouver, BC 546 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-02-11 15:17, Suzanne wrote: I agree that the segregation camp isn't looking at it the right way. But it is different than "people trying to find their niche," isn't it? People who perform Geek Magic, for example, might "[look] out for like minded people"--but they may also accept or even relish their "outsider" status. In this case, isn't part of the issue that women don't want to be a part of the fringe? Being new to magic, but more importantly being male, I have no idea what the actual difficulties are that women face in this field. I'd be interested in hearing more about it, though. It would probably help everyone to understand what's involved. -Travis |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Suzanne wrote:
Quote:
Good idea about starting a thread here except then we get too many (and one is too many) guys out there who are not respectful of our issues. All there needs to be is for one person (like Dr. Magic) to say something as hurtful as "women do magic like they throw" and the young girls who try to post here are shut down. I don’t care if he was joking, I don’t care if he was just trying to start something, it’s still going to shut them down. Women who have been in magic for a long time and know what guys like him are about can disregard his stupid comments but a young girl getting into magic, looking for answers and acceptance probably can't. That's why we need a place like the WIM board. My point would only be that if you've read the posts in other areas of this forum there are a lot of times everyone is shown disrespect. This is a rather anonymous board, your going to get that no matter what, even were there a segregated board. If a person doesn't have thick skin, the real world magicians will tell you, and you would also know as I assume you are one, Muggles out there can be awful rude. There may be disrespectful people out there, but I don't know if this would be the answer. I personally think it's foolish to think a woman would be lesser at magic, when it to it I am teaching my daughter the fine art now, and she's gonna be good. And my wife can throw a ball pretty good. As a matter of fact she and I play darts a lot and she is as good or better than I and many other men who make the mistake of underestimating her.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts |
You do make some good points, Suzanne but in the midst of it you seem to kind of ignore the fact that in a place like this there are many top class female magicians as well as male ones, and loads of different niches to place your topic.
Problems with palming a card with small hands (common to both sexes like most magic problems) - go to "lovers of the pasteboard." Problems with dress - go to "what we wear." Even start your own thread. You're more likely to get your different perspective from a larger number of performers, many of them top class. I only perform close up but I wouldn't dream of hanging around a close up only board. I like to get the widest ideas and read about all kinds of magic to get your "other view" as you put it. We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on some of these things though! I'd like to put out another question to people. You say that these WIM boards or conventions are not actually segregated or limited to women, and men do in fact participate. So, what is the likley motive of those men who do participate? Do they have small hands or is it something else? |
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Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
I myself gave it a shot looking to see if women would be a more serious group for the discussion of issues that are difficult in a morass of small minded people burdened with issues that seem unfortunately masculine...trying get away from puzzles and challenges, and from spectators being victims. Seemed maybe there could be more focus on the stories, on the periphrial communication and gesture, more social, etheral, widespread concepts.
Not sure if it's a gender thing right now though. Might just be good/bad thing in all sexes, as I have learned about the male community. |
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