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Suzanne New user Minneapolis 96 Posts |
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On 2005-02-11 19:37, travisb wrote: Well, I don’t know that I chose my words as well as I had hoped. My point is that there are things women magicians would like to be able to talk about without a lot of male energy put into it. I’m not saying that we don’t ever want male energy and/or input, just that there are times when male energy gets in the way for us. This is not a slam, this is not a rejection of men and/or their ideas. The fact is women and men process information differently, we think and feel differently. Sometimes we need to just be with just us. I don’t see how that can be anything but good. Quote:
Being new to magic, but more importantly being male, I have no idea what the actual difficulties are that women face in this field. I'd be interested in hearing more about it, though. It would probably help everyone to understand what's involved. I think that would be a great topic. You wanna start the tread? I’ll post to it. |
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Suzanne New user Minneapolis 96 Posts |
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On 2005-02-11 20:13, Josh Riel wrote: Yes you are correct that people with be disrespectful no matter where you are. My point is, if we are on a board that is dedicated to women’s issues regarding magic there will be fewer people who don’t understand our issues, hence fewer people who will be disrespectful to what we have to go through. We will have more “air time” to work out our issues. You have to admit this is a very busy board, and it’s hard sometimes to get your questions answered when there is so much noise. Quote:
If a person doesn't have thick skin, the real world magicians will tell you, and you would also know as I assume you are one, Muggles out there can be awful rude. So I’m not disagreeing with your point, I’m just asking this next question for clarification purposes. Are you saying that because it’s a cruel world out there it isn’t a good idea to have a safe place for someone to talk about their issues and they should just get thicker skin? Quote:
I’m glad she’s going to be good and I’m glad she has her dad to teach her. She’s very lucky. Many of us don’t/didn’t have our dad’s to teach us. We don’t/didn’t have someone to keep the dirty old men in magic at bay for us. (Oh Man Suzanne!! Don’t say that!!! They are gonna jump all in your crap for saying that there are dirty old men in magic who would try to get in your pants by teaching you how to do a double lift! CRAAAAAP!! You're in trouble NOOOOOWWWW!!!) You will never understand what it is like to be a woman in a man’s world unless you’ve been there. There are tensions you will never feel, there are things said to/about us that will never be said to/about you. There is support you get from the other male magicians that we will never get because we are not male. Take good care of your daughter, Josh. Help give her good self-esteem. Let her know there are men out there who can and will hurt her because they don’t know any better. Let her know when she’s performing magic for men they may try to pull her down on their laps and say clever things like “How ‘bout you sit here on my lap and see if you can levitate something?” Will you be able to teach her how to deal with that? Have you ever had to deal with it? I have dealt with it. I would know what to tell her. Would she want to talk about it on a board like this one?? Probably not. It doesn’t feel safe to. This is only one reason why having a WIM board/conference would be good for women. To have a safe place to learn. How can that be bad? |
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Suzanne New user Minneapolis 96 Posts |
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On 2005-02-12 07:55, BlackShadow wrote: No, I’m not ignoring that BlackShadow. Not once did I say this board doesn’t have value and magic conventions other than WIM don’t have value. Not once did I say it’s an either or situation, a love ‘um or leave ‘um deal. In fact I said Quote:
Just because there is a WIM conference or WIM message board doesn't mean we aren't interested in also being attendees at other conferences and/or being members of other boards. Quote:
On 2005-02-12 07:55, BlackShadow wrote: You're more likely to get your different perspective from a larger number of performers, many of them top class. Depending on what the issue is. Some things will get lost in the noise, some things will get joked about, some things just won’t be asked at all because the girls feel scared that they will be picked on. Quote:
I only perform close up but I wouldn't dream of hanging around a close up only board. I like to get the widest ideas and read about all kinds of magic to get your "other view" as you put it. So if there were close up only boards you wouldn’t read them? And are you a member of only this magic board? We’ve had Close-up Magic conventions here in Minneapolis where they only have close up workers come to lecture. Would you not go to a strictly close up magic convention either? I’m not trying to argue here. I’m just trying to understand what you mean by your above comment. Quote:
We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on some of these things though! Yeah, I think you’re probably right. I just wish we were able to see each other’s sides better. Thanks for the discussion though. I appreciate your comments. |
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BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts |
I think I've actually understood a bit more about the ideas of a WIM board after reading the posts of Suzanne and Beth. I'm still not convinced it could have the same usefulness as this type of board but it may well have more of a place than I thought it could. The thing about disagreement is that it forces you to look at the other perspective more than some mutual back slapping exercise. And if I did have a critcism of this board it's that too much mutual back slapping goes on.
Suzanne also made the point about someone making sexist and discouraging remarks. I think that could happen on any board, but one needs to be thick skinned in dealing with that, and if it gets out of hand the mods should tackle it. In a sense, a performer needs to be thick skinned and objective to deal with hecklers in a competant manner. So even a poster being objectionable is a lesson that can be learned from. An atmosphere where everyone behaves with kid gloves is useful for beginners, but it's still a rough and tumble atmosphere in the wide world of perfomance. |
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Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie Special user Toronto, Canada 804 Posts |
Please bear with me while I extrapolate for a paragraph.
For a few years now, I have led a support group at a major mental health & addiction centre. I never saw the need for "women's programmes", thinking they only served to reinforce the boundaries that many of wish didn't exist. At a learning conference, I had the opportunity to speak with the woman who runs the women's programmes, and she changed my mind. The statistics relating to violence by men against women & girls are absolutely startling, and many women can feel terribly threatened by men, and especially by men who are in a position or authority or control. That's an extreme example, but I think it serves to illustrate a point. Even in "normal" society, I think some women & girls can feel intimidated or minimized by the way some men behave, even when men don't realize they're actions may be taken this way. There are people with whom I choose to discuss my thoughts around magic, and part of that decision is based upon how comfortable I feel, how safe I feel, and how well I think I will be accepted, without my ever having to ask. I think we all do this. We look for people with whom we share comfort, safety, and acceptance. Bottom line for me is that, if a magic group for women & girls succeeds, then there's a place for it. I imagine many/all of those women & girls will also find male-dominated arenas to be helpful resources. I may even join in at WIM if I see they're addressing issues which are not addressed here, and which are of interest to me. Good luck with it!
Dan McLean Jr
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Suzanne New user Minneapolis 96 Posts |
Blackshadow, thanks for posting back. I want to say again that I really enjoyed our conversation and look forward to others.
Dan, you really said exactly what I was trying to say. I think it came off a lot better the way you said it, though. You made points that frankly, I didn't even want to bring up because I thought there wouldn't be enough understanding. I'm glad you brought them up. Thanks for the post. (Hey Dan! Have we met before?? You look very familiar. I did a show in Toronto a long time ago, hung out with Ariel.) |
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Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie Special user Toronto, Canada 804 Posts |
I don't think we've met Suzanne. While I think that most Toronto magicians know who Ariel is, I have never spent time with him.
Cheers!
Dan McLean Jr
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Beth Loyal user Missouri 277 Posts |
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On 2005-02-11 20:13, Josh Riel wrote: I don't think its a case of women being less capable at magic, or not being thick skinned enough. I think women understand some of the basic issues young girls in magic face better than men. My dad is a magician and as much as he mentored me and taught me about magic, he did not prepare me for how predatory a lot of magic conventions can be for a young female magician alone,or how to deal with that. I was really blindsided by it. Noone around my dad was like that. A lot of women don't talk about this issue on public boards, because men take it as a personal critisim. Which it isn't. There are good magicians out there. My Dad is very ethical. Growing up in magic noone acted that way around me. But if you have a daughter in magic she will most likely deal with this. And I wonder if you have thought about how to prepare her for it. It's pretty harse when you realize the mentor you looked up to really was giving his knowledge and professing his desire to further you on your road in magic with ulterior motives. Now I know some will say that every profession deals with this. But I would say that I have worked in a lot of jobs and nowhere have I seen it as much as in magic. For one reason there is a lot of power in knowledge and girls have looked only to older more experienced males to mentor and teach in the past as there were so few female role models. I didn't really form a friendships with female magicians untill I was 18. There just weren't that many around. When I did start to meet them, I realized we shared a lot of the same experiences. They gave me invaluable advice. The kind of advice I never got from male mentors. I love magic and this certainly is not the only reason that I wanted WIM, but it is one reason. I also don't think its an either or situation. I will still attend and participate in other magic organizations and conventions. I still find some of my best mentors are men...love ya Daddy ...But I think it is only when we look at these issue will you be able to send your daughters out and not have to worry. Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts |
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..."women do magic like they throw" ... That is an ignorant comment. I play a lot of reasonable standard mixed volleyball and the ball skills of the women are every bit as good as the men. Like the basics of vanishing a coin, it comes down to practice and coordination of which nearly everyone is capable of, if they so choose |
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travisb Special user Vancouver, BC 546 Posts |
What Dan said.
-Travis |
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SnakeBabe New user Las Vegas 90 Posts |
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On 2005-02-08 15:31, CamelotFX wrote: Me, a prop! Oh Geez, you have never seen my show. I treat men like the toys they are. Quote:
....I think that those women could probably do a pretty good show on their own, but they've got one problem to solve: What to do with their headliner husbands during the act? As for my performing husband I figured out his place, he is my opening act! Hugs and Hissessss, Maria |
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evolve629 Inner circle A stack of 3838 Posts |
I think numbers play a big role in any field. Since there are very few women in the field of magic and women only magic convention will have a hard time get off the ground. People flock to magic convention becuase it has big names recognition (male magicians). Products sell and lecture notes go like hot cakes.
I have not seen a women studies department at any colleges/universities that has the same funding like the computer science or engineering department. Money just keep pouring into the programs above and women studies department has to get by with min. staff and min. funds. Women made up about 60% of the population. But women's work are not value as female wages never has caught up with male's. Why, it's how society value gender and worth. Our society socialized and funnelled girls and boys into differnt interest and career paths. I'd love to be able to go to a female magician and ask about specific problems I encountered. But how approachable are female magicians? I know like many professions, when a woman reaches the top, her attitudes are worse than if not just like powerful men in terms of values and ethos. Top women CEOs behave just like the good ol' boys club. I don't make this up as there are reseach in psychology, political science and sociology demonstrated this behavioral change. How many times when I have a problem or two with a trick here needing help, and who offer suggestions and soluations? Male magicians. I am not pro-male, in fact I'm a tom boy and a feminist. I love magic and I want an enviornment where female and male magicians can come together and learn from each other.
One hundred percent of the shots you don't take don't go in - Wayne Gretzky
My favorite part is putting the gaffs in the spectators hands...it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling inside! - Bob Kohler |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
I think that a female magician convention is fine.
However, I am not convinced that there is a "problem" of "inequality" in magic based on gender. I have never met a male magician who would refuse to let a female magician join the local club or be a part of a session based simply on her sex. I think that trying to force an equality of NUMBERS of male and female magicians is ludicrous. As far as I can see, the primary reason there aren't more females in magic is because more females don't WANT to be in magic, rather than because they are in any way prohibited by men. I have taught community education classes in magic many times. The course description was simply about learning basic sleight of hand technique and beginning tricks. Every time but one, the male students outnumbered the female students by 5 or 6 to 1. The one time this wasn't true was because there were no female students at all! That wasn't caused by any bias, sexism or elitism. It was caused purely by the interest of the students. The ONLY issue I have with women or minority-only conventions is if they discriminate against white males, and I don't see that happening here at all. But take, for example, the Latin Grammies. Try putting on "The White Guys Only Grammies" and see what happens! Another example: there are TONS of women's only fitness clubs in my area, but not one men's only club. I think it's well and good to have conventions aimed at a specific group. We already do it all the time. We have close up conventions and coin conventions and mentalism conventions and bizarre conventions. But those conventions do not exclude stage magicians or card manipulation specialists or illusionists. If you can generate enough interest to put on a successful convention targeted toward a specific group of whatever kind, I say more power to you.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
It is amazing. We are a small group as it is. Out of all the people in the world who could potentially be magicians only a very few have the interest and tenacity to look into it with any fervor. We end up as a small almost infinitesimal minority in the field of entertainment and of hobbies and what do we want to do? "Hey let's make it smaller."
Personally people can do what they want. Conventions are not fueled so much by interest or political correctness as they are by economics. If there are enough of anything or anybody to make it profitable, build it and they will come. Personally I'd love to see more and more women in magic. I've had two daughters one is an adult and is not really interested in magic, my youngest; who is five, is beginning to understand that magic isn't real but clever tricks. She seems fascinated - I can only hope. After all somebody's got to take all this stuff when I go to the curtain call in the sky. For me the pro part is we are all part of a very special class of people who have a rich history behind what we do. The con is that divided we are weaker, and the poorer for it Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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Beth Loyal user Missouri 277 Posts |
It's great to see this topic being discussed and I appreciate all the thoughts on the pros and cons of a wim convention.
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On 2005-06-15 13:13, Frank Tougas wrote: It's a strange theory to me that wim conventions would divide us. I don't think they did in the past or will in the future. They are about bringing greater numbers of women who love magic ...who have made magic there life together in one place . How powerful is that? For those of you that have seen the pictures of previous wim conventions the thing what is most apparent is that for the first time large numbers of female magicians had come together in one place. ( btw you can see those photos at Luna Shemada's site http://lunashemada.com/wim.html ) Many are young girls just starting out in magic. I think wim conventions will be a great resource for them. I have been around magic literally all my life, and I did not have a female mentor till I was 18. I didn't miss that until I met other female magicians and realized how much they had to teach me that a male magician just did not have. That said it does not mean that male magicians do not have an infinitesimal amount of skill and knowledge to share and teach. Some of my greatest teachers in magic have been males...Love you Dad Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
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On 2005-06-15 19:23, Beth wrote: I hope you simply misspoke here and meant "infinite" rather than "infinitesimal." The former means without limit, while the latter means incalcuably small; worthless or meaningless. If you were saying the latter, that would be sexism! ;)
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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El_Lamo Special user Canada 589 Posts |
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On 2005-02-12 13:01, Suzanne wrote: I would want my daughter to have the confidence to be able to say "But if it levitates... I get to try my torn and restored effect. I'm still trying to get it right." I would want my daughter to have your confidence and be willing to talk about it on a board like this and feel safe doing so and I would want her to be encouraged to continue. Thank you! Cheers - El Lamo
Life is a system of circumstance presented coincidently in an illusory way.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
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On 2005-02-06 23:18, Beth wrote: Can you name these studies? I'm curious. I know a number of the women who are very heavily involved in magic as performers. While some of them have problems palming because of the size of their hands, there are few who have hands as small as Max Malini's. All of us, men and women, adapt things to fit our own performing abilities. Some people think this dropoff of interest in becoming a magician occurs because women become interested in raising a family. I don't think any family situation will discourage someone who really wants to learn the art. It didn't stop Trixie Bond from raising 3 children and pursuing an active career. Nobody that I know of actively (or even passively) discourages women from joining the magic clubs. Things are changing constantly in the world of magic. In 1986, when I joined the Magic Circle of London, it was one of the last of the organizations that was by its own charter limited to male magicians. Now there are more than 50 women who are members of the Magic Circle. The number is steadily increasing. Maybe one of the reasons few women are interested in magic is that women can perform the greatest miracle of all. They can give birth. What can a man do to top that? Not much. I encourage anyone who really wants to learn magic to do so. However, I don't believe in forcing anyone to become a magician.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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mormonyoyoman Inner circle I dug 5,000 postholes, but I have only 2440 Posts |
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On 2005-02-08 22:34, Suzanne wrote: Ick! Who wants to watch a bunch of Jell-O wrestling a bunch of pillows? All seriousness aside, if you could stop the women who focus on their bodies from doing so, it would help women's causes tremendously. I don't remember her name, but I remember a lady magician who performed in a suit. The focus was on her magic and her wit, and the show was teriffic - one of the best I've seen. But that was long ago in the 1970s, when I was a very young man. At that age, had she been in a revealing costume, I wouldn't have noticed the magic at all. Johnny Thompson's wife (aside: see a problem? I can remember Thompson's name, but not his wife's. What's wrong with that?) does a very clever spoof of the type of women who are just window-dressing. It's a difficult problem, isn't it? *jeep! --Chet (Who discouraged his daughters from the entertainment business because he knew how they'd be treated. And discouraging daughters NEVER works.)
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
--Grandpa Chet |
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Marshall Thornside Inner circle chicago 2016 Posts |
Magic is universal between Men and Women.
They both want to surpass each other and get unique recognition with what they are able to do. It's ok to have an all women convention. Why wouldn't it work? There are all women music festivals and such. There's nothing wrong with a convention or gathering or anything that promotes women in anything. We are always be told that we are the weaker sex, and that there is no place for us where the men are strong in. And if we need support from other women to gain a perspective or an idea there's no reason why we can't do it. Doing something that is dominated by men and proving something of your self is great promotion to the lay audience. It grabs their attention. Like me being hapanese.
you will remember my name
World's Youngest Illusionista 7th greatest pianist in the world Go Red For Women and Stroke Ambassador www.mai-ling.net |
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