I would like if anyone interested in gambling would like to add me on MSN, I've become interested recently and would be nice to hear from other people with the same interest what they think and give each other some advice.

kim_85a@hotmail.com

thnx!

Don't do it !

What he's saying is don't get cought up in the Shade movie, World Poker Tour BONNANZA going on these days. Its not as glamourous as it seems;

Because you can be cheated at poker even in casino games by cousin betters colluding with each other untill you know better and find weaker fish and wind up doing the same thing to all the newbs lol

Well I want to learn this because I hate cheating. To nail cheaters. And to use in my shows. Think it's a great art.

If it is three on one it is hard to catch the cheaters. They really don't have to cheat with the cards. It is hard enough to win one on one. When you are going against a team you can just kiss your cash goodbye.

You hate and want to nail cheaters? your in freaking finland for crying out loud LMAO! good luck in finding a job as a consultant catching WAVES of cheaters.

only place you going to find is here in the states where BIG money is at, where sleight of hand was born in backroom salloons in the old west poker games.

Actually, the science of cheating at cards arose with the gambling centers of Europe during the reign of Louis XV of France--much earlier than in the American West. In the resorts and baths like Baden-Baden, or in Hotels such as L'Hotel de Gevres and and L'Hotel de Soissons in Paris and similar places in other European cities, gambling and cheating in organized venues arose simultaneously.

There is plenty of big money in the casinos of Europe today--home to high rollers from all over the world.

Guard, ever heard of moving? You can move from one country to another...? First of all I have to learn all the sleights, the psychology and so on. Secondly, I was not referring to nail cheaters in big casinos and stuff like that. I have had a couple of requests from co-workers and friends who want me to help them because they think they are being cheated. Poker is VERY popular in Sweden and Finland at the moment and I sure don't trust people at the gamling table. And as I said, I also want cardcheating in my close up show I'll put together, in a hopefully, nearby future.

Kim all this sounds good but you're dealing with the scum of the earth and they don't mind killing you or a family member if you get in their way if they can't get to you. I know that that may sound far fetched but it does happen to busy bodies or people who meddle in other peoples business.

I know you don't trust people at the gambling table because you know what can happen if you play but the only way to learn the psychology behind cheating is to experience it first hand. Just by conversation I know who and who don't play because certain things they don't know and it should be obvious.

Magic Kim's First Question

Why should you always deal a sucker his first card besides the fact that it is his card in the first place?
Why do hustler's prefer the loser to deal?
Why do dice players want you to hit the back board?

Regarding your statement about learning all the sleights...purchase Steve Forte's GPS and when you learn everything there, you've only just begun to touch the surface of what's out there and the gambling moves that are being invented everyday.

How can you learn cheating from gambling books and the guys that write these books are magicians who most of the time are lying to you by exagerating certain incidents and telling you stories that they heard. If you think that I'm lying why is it that all of these top magicians here are still looking for answers to obvious questions if they gambled for a living?

This is one of the biggest sites regarding magic in the world today and look how many gambling professionals you have here, not many and those that do know each other have a unspoken code of not to tell you jack sh** about anything.

MagicKim the first thing you have to learn is that the guys who cheat are like a secret society and the only way you can join is to be actually spotted by another cheater and he inturn invites you to meet other cheats and so on and so on...other then that you're going to get half true stories like I found out in these gambling books and when you get into the world of hustling you're going to see that everything they said were mostly lies so that it would make their book more exciting to read and to make them look more experienced.

Now if you don't believe that read Jimmy Swain's books and you'll be getting exactly what I'm talking about some true stories and the other part not so true and middle deals that are actually second dealing on the down low.

Your Friend

Doc

P.S. I've just re-downloaded 7 hours of gambling moves on my laptop and this is not even counting the other 40 somthing gambling videos that I have pertaining to cheating at gambling etc. Good luck in trying to learn every gambling sleight: I gave up on trying to learn everything myself, I hope that you succeed.

You think Card Sharps are tough! I have been to Finland it is so cold that if you cry there, the tears freeze to your face. The only poker game I saw there was Strip Poker. Them Fins are tough cookies.

Tommy

You want to nail cheaters???

Unless they have a mechanical device up there sleeve you can't.

the only thing you can do is make accusations. Most of the gambling cheaters out there are so good at second/bottom/middle dealing that they can video tape themselves and not be able to tell what there doing. You're just going to get into trouble if you accuse someone of second dealing. You'll never be able to prove it.

Best of Luck Anyway

Well, It's like this. I became interested in gambling because I played some poker with my friends. Some texas to be exact. As I said before, we play quite a lot here. (referring to Sweden ATM). Well, I'm just a beginner, I know I won't be able to learn everything but I want to learn as much as possible or as much that I'm happy with what I can do. I don't think I'd dare to accuse a stranger of cheating eventhough I was sure that he was cheating. I would probably tell my friends that that guy is cheating so don't play with him. Can't say that I hate cheating, are really temped to try the stuff I'm working on but don't want to cheat my friends and don't have the currage to do it with strangers. I just want tips like yours doc, where to get the info needed to learn important sleights and also some advice on how to do them if I'm having trouble executing them.

Take care folks,

Kim out.

You still wouldnt be able to spot them unless their amatuers. I seen DarwinOrtiz cheating at cards video and his moves were awsome, and this is with him TELLING YOU WHAT HE'S DOING. In casinos its a different story, these casino gambling consultants can REWIND hours of video tape and catch the moves and even then it takes awhile to spot them by rewinding the tapes, try that in a home game of your friends. But most I doubt your friends are getting cheated, the players that are beating them from their money are probably THAT GOOD at poker. Just because someone is beating you don't mean they are cheating.

For all you know your friends might be giving away tells, or play poorly. Do yourself a favor and stick to magic and sponge balls.

Be careful about even suggesting to your friends that someone else is cheating them. That is slander, and if you can't prove it, you can be sued for everything you've got. The accused does not have to prove anything other than that you accused him. You have to prove he is guilty or lose the case.

The reason the casinos look for photographic or video evidence of cheating is because otherwise they can not prove that cheating occured and are at risk of a lawsuit if they claim something and can not prove it. They most often just refuse the play of someone they distrust without making any accusations.

This is written into the laws that control gaming--no casino needs a reason to refuse the play of any customer.

If you think you are being cheated, the correct thing to do is to leave the game without explanation.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why so many people want to learn gambling moves that take many years of hard practice without any plan to use them in cheating. It is sort of like going through the years of training to learn brain surgery just for the fun of it.

If you find something enthralling about six to eight hours a day of hard practice at something you will never have any actual use for, you have a passion that is rare, and I suppose commendable--but I myself don't get it. I work very, very hard at magic, but it is my means of income as well as my passion.

There are not many jobs available for professional gambling consultancy, and the field is already full of truly experienced and talented people who have spent a lifetime of study, practice, and association with professional card cheats.

Gambling demonstrations for entertainment are fine, but the market is small and difficult to break into. Besides, the most entertaining demonstrations are completely faked, and can be performed by most competent card magicians. The real work is not very interesting for performance.

Well, I guess you have a lot of good points here but none of you seem to understand me so I'll stop explaining. Perhaps I will use them but don't want to tell everyone but it? It's a lot that you don't know about me and comparing brainsurgery with cheating is just weird. I think this is fun, it's a hobby, like soccer or floorball. Would it bother you if Im pleased just to get some credit for being able to perform these ingenious methods? Instead of earning hundreds or thousands of dollars? I will eventually find more passions of life but right now, I find this very fun. And by the way, as I said, _if_ I'd catch someone cheating, (because I could, I don't play cards with the elite, I play with my friends and friends of their and so on) then I would tell my friends that I think someone's cheating and then it's their call if they want to leave the table or not. Seems like I explained a few things after all .

ps. I've seen Ortiz perform under circumstances when he tells us what's going on and I'm sure that I wouldn't suspect a thing if I wouldnt have been forwarned, but believe me, I don't play cards with people like that .

I see your point here, Mr Haydn, but there are numerous artistic pursuits that have no real world value, financial or otherwise. I know several people who dedicate themselves fiercely to learning, say, obscure weapons based martial arts - artforms with weapons that no longer exist as commonplace in our culture. Most folks who study, say iaido or jodo will have no direct real world application for what they've learned, and I can honestly say there's NO money to be made there. But I believe there are benefits to learning to do something very well, even if you do not ever use it in the real world context for which it was developed. Whether dealing 2nds or practicing with a jo staff, you can learn about timing, rhythm, grace, form, etc, and I think these things can all have a direct impact on one's life outside of direct application.

Personally, though, I think your way is the better way: if one can combine one's passion for an art with the way one earns a living, you've got a good thing to look forward to every time you go to work!

respectfully,
Tristan O'

Hi Whithaydn,

What an interesting and thought provoking question. Why do people want to devote huge amounts of time to learning difficult gambling sleights that have limited use in card magic when they don't want to use the techniques for cheating? Its been a sort of subliminal challenge that has been nagging away in my mind for sometime. It came home to roost recently when my daughter said 'Daddy, why don't you show us your card tricks anymore?' I don't really know the answer to all this except to say that there is a kind of addictive obession and dare I say glamour around the idea of acquiring rare card skills that allow you to control the outcome of a card game for money. In my case I cope with this in two ways. Firstly I work towards trying out some of the moves 'blind' in a real game. Secondly, I try to learn and think up my own gambling effects and routines incorporating them where possible into the arduous practice sessions these sleights demand. Thankfully Darwin Ortiz, Andrew Wimhurst, Jack Carpenter etc all provide ways of utilising many of these sleights for entertainment. Otherwise I think I might just go potty.

Regards,

Paul H

I don't think that you actually need to catch a cheater, acussing is enough, espacially if it is your money that is involved. If you think a cheat is involved, stop playing. My wife used to work at casino's and the pit bosses were trained to remove possible cheaters from a table. As soon as they thought (only thought) that you were cheating you could go. And I think that is the whole idea behind catching cheaters.

BTW did you look at 'The Cheat" by turner ;-)

Whit

I think that sleights that can actually fly at the card table are few. Some gamblers learn them just so the can try and spot them for there own protection and it is fun leaning them. I do not think the real work takes a lifetime to learn. That is more appropriately said of a magicians work. Erdnase covers about all that can be done at the card table but not everything. This leads a lot of gamblers into doing card magic also I dare say magicians into card players. I would think there are more gamblers who know a card trick or two than there are magicians. Most poker players play all their life and some have a keen interest in card magic, but do not have a keen desire to either cheat or be a magician. Although the moves are few I think they are rewarding to the magician. In the words of Erdnase:
It may demonstrate to the tyro that he cannot beat a man at his own game, and it may enable the skilled in deception to take a post-graduate course in the highest and most artistic branches of his vocation. But it will not make the innocent vicious, or transform the pastime player into a professional; or make the fool wise, or curtail the annual crop of suckers; but whatever the result may be, if it sells it will accomplish the primary motive of the author, as he needs the money.

Tommy

MagicKim in the hustling world you don't squeal on a cheat even if your friends are being cheated. What you do is tell your friend(s) he let's get out of here and if they don't want to go just keep mention it again and if they choose to still not go then just let them be cheated. They will learn to listen to you or get broke if they don't.

Imagine telling your friend(s) that someone is cheating them and they get up to do something and after the cheat seem to can't get out of it he pulls out his gun and shoot and kill your friend and maybe you because you're with him and told him this, it would have been your fault for not minding your own business.

Until this happens to you and someone dies you really won't understand what I'm saying to you but Whyt told you in a nice way, I'm telling you in the worst. Do as you wish

Doc