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4Jacks
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Quote:
On 2005-03-09 07:58, JeremiahZuo wrote:
I'm not saying it's agaisnt the law! There is no legal action that can be taken, that much is obvious.

But we're talking within the magic community, it is considered stealing. And you are part of the magic community are you not? I just reread your post and it seems you don't' consider yourself so. So then I have another question why are you giving advice with your level of knowlege?


Youíre Right, I wouldnít really consider myself as part of the magic community.
I like to word Hobbyist. Itís uncommitted.

Itís not my intention to give advice, being as self admitted novice.
My intentions are to give a consumer review. Iím a newbie, I purchased the DVD, I thought it was a worth while purchase, I listed what I like and didnít like about the DVD.
What better source is there for a Newbie interested in buying the same DVD?

As far as me giving you the advice to start a petition to set up intellectual property rights for magicians. I donít believe that I need to be a professional magician to give that advice. I would need to be a lawyer. But Iím not that either!

My point was, it is unfair to judge hobbyists and new magicians to an unwritten internal code of conduct.

In the last post where this DVD came up, you blatantly called me a thief for purchasing this thing off of eBay. How was I suppose to know that there was an unwritten internal code of magical conduct that this DVD was severely breaking and that by my purchase I would also be associated with that and looked down upon on this forum??

No one ever sent me a memo!?

Am not saying that a Code of Conduct isnít necessary, and Iím not saying it is unfair. But the ďMagic CommunityĒ is not a club that you sign up for. You donít read through the terms and conditions and sign your name on the line, then all of a sudden youíre in group! But it is unfair to put down a new person for actions taken and quote a code of conduct that is not tangible.

Of course now it seems like Iím say. ďWell, I bought the DVD, not know about the code of conduct. Iíve now found out about the Code of Conduct. But Iím still going to recommend the DVD to people and say forget about the Code of Conduct.Ē

And thatís not really want I want to say!

The way I see things are like this.
The DVD made a huge mistake and didnít Credit Anybody.
I think that is Wrong.
But the DVD is already out, I donít think they are going to revise it, it is what it is.
I think it is a good value for the $20 it costs and I think new people should consider buying it, but they should also realize the mistake that the producer made.
Jordini
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I think this topic needs to degenerate to a discussion on coffee and pastries much like the Tudor gambling thread.
"Illusion is the first of all pleasures."
Oscar Wilde

"If you only knew the hours I spent just thinking about practicing"
-The Amazing Jonathan
JeremiahZuo
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Hold the phone 4jacks, I never called you a theif. The only person I called a theif was Rob Stiff.
Joshua 24:15
4Jacks
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I'm sorry Jeremiah, It was not you who called me a thief, it was in flames.
I apologize. I guess I just recalled you're name from the other thread, and I didn't take the time to look back and see what was what.
Jordini
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You can only edit a post, posted in the last 30 mins, and it has to be the last post. (If someone posts after you, you can't edit anymore). No longer can you change anything, the truth will FOREVER REMAIN which is why you need to pick your words C.a.r.e.f.u.l.l.y)
"Illusion is the first of all pleasures."
Oscar Wilde

"If you only knew the hours I spent just thinking about practicing"
-The Amazing Jonathan
4Jacks
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*COUGH*ghetto*COUGH*

I'm j/k it's not that bad of a policy, sucks for me though, cause I'm constantly mispelling words and getting stuff mixed up.
MnemonicaRedux
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Quote:
On 2005-03-09 11:01, 4Jacks wrote:

I think it is a good value for the $20 it costs and I think new people should consider buying it, but they should also realize the mistake that the producer made.


Scenario:
I go to a new restaurant that has just opened around the block, having heard a good deal about the food there. Looking through the menu, I realise that there are quite a decent amount of items availible on the menu, and finally decide to spend my money on the $20 "everything" burger combo meal. It tastes pretty decent, and I feel that my money's been well spent. The next day, I bring a friend along to the restaurant for a meal, and I tell him that the burger I had yesterday was quite yummy. He looks at me in shock, and tells me, "you actually had that sh!t? Dude, not only is that thing the worst item on the menu, it actually has mouth cancer-causing ingredients... didn't anyone tell you that??!". So now I'm doomed to spend the rest of my life eating in bitter, torturous pain.

The moral of the story is:
Showoff with Cards might be appealing to the new guys, but by teaching them the wrong technques(cancer-causing ingredients), the rest of their flourishing lives will be affected (mouth cancer). There's no way to stop them from buying it, but by advocating it... you're hurting them. That's why you're under flak, dude... just hope this sorta clears it up.

-Kev
fingerjack
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SHOWOFF WITH CARDS causes mouth cancer? Oh, nevermind, I see it was the cheesburger.

Wait a sec, cheeseburgers cause mouth cancer? And to think I quit smoking.
MAGNAPALM - The World's first psionic magnetic implants that is changing the future of magic http://youtu.be/EDmg2bp_Cas

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http://fingerjack.wix.com/washedanddryed
4Jacks
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Dude, you have a very hazy Interpretation of the word Clear!

But the story was amusing!

Allow me to paraphrase what youíre saying.

ďThe Video Teaches incorrect Methods. Itís not just Poor Teaching, Itís teaching the wrong Stuff, Like going to Law school to Learn MedicineĒ

Was that somewhat accurate ???
If that is what youíre saying, then that hasnít been said before!!!
If It is True, then I agree, People should not Buy the DVD.
But what is it teaching incorrectly??
Have you actually watched the DVD and were able to say, that is not the correct way to do that??
Thatís what I want to know.
Iím not very far along in going through the EoPCF yet. Iíve got school killing me now, so I havenít picked up a deck in a few days.
But I did find one really big difference.
The EoPCF teaches the Three packet Charlier cut as sticking the top packet in a split in the bottom packet.
The Show Off DVD teaches the Three Packet Charlier got as breaking the top packet in two, letting the top slide down to your fingers and under the bottom packet, then complete the Charlier.
You have to actually have seen it to know what Iím talking about, Iím not that good at explaining it.

I think itís a matter of the two cuts just being two different cuts. Not that One is Wrong or one is Correct. And I must Say that I really like the method on the DVD much better. Jerry even says in the EoPCF that he doesnít like when packets are split with other packets, but his version of the 3 packet Charlier is pretty close to that, (The split is created with your finger not with the cards, but itís very late in the cut) Anyway the cut on the DVD just looks better and it shuffles the cards better, in Jerryís version the bottom packet remains the bottom. (Not that that is always a bad thing)

So I just think they are two different cuts.

So can you list an example of the DVD teaching the wrong method, versus the correct method??
MnemonicaRedux
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By the mouth cancer causing pain during future eating periods analogy, I meant that learning the incorrect methods would hinder the progress of other certain flourishes based on that move.

FOR EXAMPLE:
The Flipback. Rob teaches it by doing it straight from the straddle grip. "So what, Kev? Works for me... just because he teaches it wrongly doesn't mean the flourish is invalid". But think about this: During the Flipback FAN, the thumb is required to help fan the cards, but because the index finger was used to get the cards on the back of the hand, the cards are in a less advantageous position to contact the thumb, it results in a fan with an angle 90 degrees less than it should be. Because one minor detail was incorrectly taught, your flipback fans will now look like a pizza slice. Not very cool, if you ask me. "But Kev... Rob doesn't even teach the flipback fan, so why should these newcomers have to worry about one stupid little detail taught wrongly?". NOW you know why he doesn't teach it... his incorrect handling has rendered him unable to get it down decently.

4jacks, I'm not trying to stir up sh!t, but I'm attempting to explain why I'm against the thought of introducing the DVD to people as a learning source. Sure, there's no way to stop people from buying it, but encouraging them to do so isn't any better. I hope I'm less hazy now Smile

Oh, and yeah... this topic needs to lighten up a bit.

Image


-Kev
4Jacks
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HEY ! A guy at the Office has that Same Doggy on his wall and the Caption Reads.. "If Looks Could Kills"

Kev, that made the most sense out of any of the other post! I completely see what your saying, and I completely agree. If he is teaching the same cut the wrong way then it's just crap! My example was two seperate cuts. But now that you pointed out the flib back, His plain jane Charlier cut is just wrong, cuase for some odd reason he tells you to push the bottom packet with your middle finger. And you just can't use your middle finger with any other variation of that cut. It's just Crap. I kinda just overlooked it and said, just use your friggin index finger. But you're right, he's teaching newbies that Crap.. and it's Crap!

That's just what I needed, a solid example of poor quality material on the DVD, and not just someone blasting the producer of the DVD.

In light of Kev's arguement I am retracting my Previous Statement. Newbies shouldn't buy this crap.

I'm friggin PO'ed now.. I spent $20 on this Crap. and I'll never be able to do a flipback fan!!!! Plus I'm going to Get Friggin MOUTH CANCER.. and the X gurl told everyone about my PJ's and Teddy Bear!!!
I WANT MY FRIGGIN MONEY BACK!!
fingerjack
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I think you guys beat it into him. This topic has already been discussed anyhow: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......3&28

Yes, I have seen the DVD. Bottom line? You get what you pay for.
MAGNAPALM - The World's first psionic magnetic implants that is changing the future of magic http://youtu.be/EDmg2bp_Cas

WASHED AND DRYED - An squeaky clean incredible full deck transformation!
http://fingerjack.wix.com/washedanddryed
ClouDsss
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Hence I would conclude to say that beginners should refer to my recommendations given in the 4th Post of this Thread. Smile Smile Smile

PEACE! Smile
Think outside the box, cos people are all thinking inside now!! - ClouDsss
liltut
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OK, I'm sorta new to the whole XMC thing....... But you guys sure do complain about stupid stuff! you sound like my girlfriend. If something is taught wrong (such as the flipback), I change finger positioning and handlings..... such as Showoff... he teaches you to use your index and pinky. No! I'm only 15 so I have smaller hands. I use my pinky and thumb, because it doesn't hurt. Is this wrong? Am I to burn in ........ because I do things my way?
SirPoBoy
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Pardon me, I have just been busy and am starting to post in the forums more now since I've gotten some business out of the way now.

Quote:
On 2005-03-12 16:23, liltut wrote:
OK, I'm sorta new to the whole XMC thing....... But you guys sure do complain about stupid stuff! you sound like my girlfriend. If something is taught wrong (such as the flipback), I change finger positioning and handlings..... such as Showoff... he teaches you to use your index and pinky. No! I'm only 15 so I have smaller hands. I use my pinky and thumb, because it doesn't hurt. Is this wrong? Am I to burn in ..... because I do things my way?


I don't think you'd burn in ....., but I consider it just the wrong technique. It is the proper way to do it, and if you don't want to do it that way, fine, suit yourself, it's just more respectable and proper to execute the right technique. There's a reason to these methods, it's all up to you if you'd like to follow them or not. For example if I were to pitch a baseball and follow through, which means to bend your body so the baseball can be at a lower angle when you throw it, that is considered the right and proper way to throw a baseball. But if I wanted to be like my friend who did not want to follow through because he thought it didn't really matter and get hit in the nose with the baseball, then fine. As I have said previously, there's a reason to the right methods, it all up to you on whether you'd like to do it right or wrong in your case. Please learn it from the originator, not the duplicator. The flipback is on De'vo's DVD, Cradle to Grave, the right technique is on there, if you'd like to learn it, then go right ahead, I recommend the DVD highly.

P.S.: About the follow through story. It was a true story and my friend didn't follow what his coach was saying so when the ball hit his nose, it broke and he went to the ambulance and everything. It just goes to show you, if you don't want to follow through, then have it your way.

SirPoBoy
MnemonicaRedux
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Wow, very nice analogy, SirPoBoy... I think I'll use it to explain to people in real life why they should do things the right way. I'll credit you, though Smile

-Kev
4Jacks
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How did your friend get hit in the noise throwing a baseball? You mean that batter hit the ball and hit him in the noise? I'm not coming down on you, I just don't know too much about baseball, but I can't see how it would matter if the pitcher threw the ball a little higher or lower, Whether or not he gets hit in the nose would depend on how the batter actually hit the ball. Beside that, shouldn't he of caught the dang on ball, or at least try? That's why they got a glove right.

Anyhoo I view the whole cards thing like this. It's all about empirical knowledge, if somebody has put the time and effort into something to discover the optimal way of doing it, then you want to jump on that manís back and use his knowledge to the best of your ability. Iíll break it down in math, If some genius a long time ago came up with a formula for a particular problem. The first thing you do in math class is go over how he got that formula, he probably went through a lot of differential equations and all sorts of other junk, just to get this tiny easy formula for you to use, The rest of the class you only use his easy formula. Well if you want to go through everything he went through for every problem you have in the future, you are more than welcome to, but you are a lot more likely to have an error along the way, then you will go straight to hell, where you will be pelted with baseballs for eternity.
liltut
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I see what your saying with the baseball, but, what about submarine style pitchers and side arm pitchers? Isn't all I'm really doing is pitching side arm? I'm still throwing, but, just a little different

And bedsides, I'm already going to ..... I don't like The Beatles. Or Zeppelin, Or Van Halen. Or The Stones... See you guys there!
Lots-O-Packets
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Quote:
On 2005-03-08 15:57, 4Jacks wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-03-04 12:32, 4Jacks wrote:
He doesn't explain fans worth Sh**


As I said, it has it's flaws, but it's worth $20

I agree, I own it and I learn quite a bit from it, so it was worth the $20. But next I'm moving on to Cap Casino's dvd's.
Lots-O-Packets
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Quote:
On 2005-03-03 19:47, ClouDsss wrote:

You might wanna follow Chris's advise too as the System by Dan & Dave is cool! Has tons of cards ranging from beginner to the advanced. I highly recommend this. But be prepared as the teaching style might not be that good.

Could you please elaborate on how the teaching might not be as good. I did some research and it says it has slow motion and differnet angles. The System is the DVD I'm leaning toward getting right now. I'm not new to flourishing, so do you think that the teaching style would effect me. I bought "Showoff with Cards" awhile ago and some of the stuff I improvised on alittle bit because I didn't understand the explanation. So how good or bad is the teaching style can you describe it? And would you recommend it for a somewhat advanced flourisher? Thanks a lot
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