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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Hypnotists You MUST Read This FYI (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Richard Busch
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Quote:
On 2005-03-06 21:47, jimtron wrote:

Quote:
On 2005-03-06 18:33, Richard Busch wrote:
This is very disturbing indeed. The initial problem is compounded because one doesn't know what a person will do and then later fall back on the myth of hypnotic domination as an excuse. The courts and juries tend to treat "hypnosis" as a loaded gun. Further misconception is promoted. It's a terrible thing all the way around.

Do you think that it's unlikely that the patients could have been coerced into sex via hynosis, or impossible? What exactly is the misconception?


What I think is not relevant here nor is this a forum to go into it. What does matter is that the public gets yet another dose of the macho-hypnotist control myth, the I can make you do this or that, you are in my power, under my spell, and so forth. Hopeless unending misunderstandings and misinformation that just goes on and on and on. See my The Destiny Response for more.
Richard Busch
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A l a i n B e ll o n
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Richard,

Exactly.
Scott Xavier
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I'll third that. This isn't the forum....
cupsandballsmagic
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Shrink, I have heard Bandler use the hypno the rapist term also. Bandler claims many things which other people have told me have been utter BS, allegedly.

Sebastian, As far as hypnosis needing a seperate catagory, I agree. I think there should also be seperate ones within that too.

Stage
Therapy
etc etc

Rick, it is unfortunate that there are predators in all walks of life who will pray on vulnerable people. I left a job (literally walked out) because of one such person. I went to a line manager and explained exactly the situation and nothing was done, so I walked.
shrink
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It is possible to "guide" someone do something they wouldn't normally do. I would say manipulation rather than control. It isn't possible with everyone but there are people out there that are highly suggestable. It is also possible to manipulate someone into doing something while they "believe" they are doing something else. Which means belief systems and values can be bypassed.

You really think these people who went for therapy engaged in these activities because they thought it was a good idea? C'mon guys. Hypnotic evidence is not useable in the American Courts because it has been shown to implant false memories.

Shrink
cupsandballsmagic
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Shrink,

Could not agree more with you. I know of someoneone who was abused by a physiotherapist.

The point I am making here is that no hypnosis was used and she is a VERY intelligent and articulate person and she was "groomed" over many months.

People do not go for HELP to be abused. It is unfortunate that there are some sick individuals out there who pray on people who want help and, at that point in their lives may be vulnerable.

I am all for registered bodies which inspect their members (just like OFFSTEAD and ALI do) regularly and resrict people from practicing if they do not achieve certain grades. While it would not eliminate every bad person out there if it helped it has to be good.

Its not just physical abuse either, the subconscious is very delicate and very literal and if you do not understand how to communicate to it correctly you can do vast amounts of damage without even being aware.
Scott Xavier
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Some one should start a private forum for hypnosis.
Karswell
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Another well-hammered nail in the coffin of peoples preconceptions.

Click here

Some more on the case with some opinions on the subject of the old will/moral/'hypnosis' debate.

Nick.
Richard Busch
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Quote:
On 2005-03-07 01:11, Alain Bellon wrote:
Richard,

Exactly.



The terrible acts that some of these people do, they do as individuals, not as "hypnotists". If a baker robs a bank, it has nothing to do with bread.

The Magic Café or any similar magic group has no business fostering discussions on "hypnotherapy" any more than it would on surgery or glass blowing. It is entirely inappropriate. This may come as a shock to some, but not every topic in the world is meant for a magic forum. Therapy isn't magic nor something to play 20 questions about nor air uninformed opinions. There is already enough misinformation available from the internet. Please don't do this guys. I know a few people here will understand. Stick to magic and drop the therapy. Respectfully, rb.
Richard Busch
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Desix
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Quote:
On 2005-03-07 06:34, shrink wrote:
It is possible to "guide" someone do something they wouldn't normally do. I would say manipulation rather than control. It isn't possible with everyone but there are people out there that are highly suggestable. It is also possible to manipulate someone into doing something while they "believe" they are doing something else. Which means belief systems and values can be bypassed.


I lecture on hypnosis frequently. The best way I found to describe it is by asking the very awake students "Would you cluck like a chicken for me right now?" They all say no. Then I phrase the question a little differently: "if I put a million dollars on the table right now and asked you to cluck...what would you do?" Invariably, I get a roomful of cluckers...My point is that my understanding of hypnosis is that it is a release of inhibitions or it attenuates risk of embarrassment. That does not mean that a person has total control over the hypnotized person. IT allows the individual to dissociate from their every day lives, but it doesn't change the person's core moral beliefs. There hasn't been a lot of research on this, but the rule of thumb has ALWAYS been that you can't make somebody do something that goes against their basic beliefs and morals. This article, however, might bring some of that into question.
chichi711
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Quote:
On 2005-03-06 20:26, enriqueenriquez wrote:
Well Jack,

Due to the original subject on this topic, I guess that a lot of lawyers will we willing to put a banner on that forum.

;-)


Nice one. That gave me a really good laugh.
jimtron
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Why not discuss hypnosis here? It's been mentioned several times on this thread that hypnosis is misunderstood. Why not clear things up here? It's not a hypnosis forum pe se, but many mentalists are interested in hypnosis, and this forum has a wide viewership.

Also, I'm still a little confused about the responses to the sex case. I wonder if anyone would mind being more specific about their opinions on this. Do you think the hypnotist really did manipulate or coerce the patients into sex? Do you think the patients are lying, and the sex never happened? Or that there was sex, but it was consensual?

Quote:
On 2005-03-06 23:49, Richard Busch wrote:

What I think is not relevant here nor is this a forum to go into it...

What you think IS relevant here, in my opinion. The Café is a place for Café members to express their opinions. If a hypnosis forum is started, then it can be discussed their, but until then, the mentalism forum seems as good a place as any.
shrink
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Quote:
On 2005-03-07 08:06, Richard Busch wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-03-07 01:11, Alain Bellon wrote:
Richard,

Exactly.



The terrible acts that some of these people do, they do as individuals, not as "hypnotists". If a baker robs a bank, it has nothing to do with bread.

The Magic Café or any similar magic group has no business fostering discussions on "hypnotherapy" any more than it would on surgery or glass blowing. It is entirely inappropriate. This may come as a shock to some, but not every topic in the world is meant for a magic forum. Therapy isn't magic nor something to play 20 questions about nor air uninformed opinions. There is already enough misinformation available from the internet. Please don't do this guys. I know a few people here will understand. Stick to magic and drop the therapy. Respectfully, rb.


With the greatest of respect Richard the discussion isn't about hypnotherapy (or bread) but the possibility of making someone do something they wouldn't normally do using hypnosis. ~Hypnotherapy I believe is about assisting others overcome problems not tricking them into having sex.

I spent nearly 8 years as a full time professional stage hypnotist. I have worked just about every kind of venue you can imagine. 90% of my volunteers couldn't remember anything despite being on stage up to two hours. I managed to follow up on a small precentage of them months after and the majority still had no recollection of the two hours on stage. Others said it came back to them piece by piece but they still had foggy parts.

I know there are some people who would do just about anything you asked them while in trance. I feel many "hypnotists" of the stage or therapy know this but keep it quiet because it makes life difficult for them.

I don't know the details of the case but I would say that it is possible to take advantage of someone in this way.


Shrink
For anyone interested in looking further check out this book "open to Suggestion the uses and abuses of hypnosis" by Robert Temple.
SHOC
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I found it curious that after a plea agreement the offender only received 90 days in jail.
bobser
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To Richard:
If you look at the actual description of this room 'Penny for your Thoughts' you will find that it is designed to hold discussion on "mentalism and hypnosis". That's why we come in here.

To Sebastion:
by asking that all female clients are accompanied doesn't that stop you from doing your job? Or don't you deal with repressions? which let's face it... can only 'really' be dealt through hypno-analysis which questions, which means a LOT of digging through very personal stuff. I am now talking of: 'Duty to Patient'. Or doesn't that happen in the States?
Or maybe you only deal with women who want to stop smoking etc. (although even that might need alalysis).

Bobser.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Richard Busch
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Quote:
On 2005-03-07 14:34, bobser wrote:
To Richard:
If you look at the actual description of this room 'Penny for your Thoughts' you will find that it is designed to hold discussion on "mentalism and hypnosis". That's why we come in here.

TO BOBSER:

You misunderstand me completely. A few people asked for a Magic Café section on hypnoTHERAPY, not just stage hyp. They wanted hypnoTHERAPY. That's what I am referring to. I tried to make that clear. I'm going to hold out my participation for Magic Café areas on religion, politics, the Kennedy and Lincoln assassinations, the National Debt, and the abortion issue. This is a public area of a magic forum. I have trained, professional colleagues to discuss my/our day job with. If you and Shrink (who I otherwise respect quite highly) want to discuss therapy and related issues with strangers and laypeople who happen to have computers, that is your choice. I want nothing to do with the inappropriate discussions and misinformation you can't help but encourage on a public forum. It think it's a huge mistake for many reasons beyond the purpose of the Magic Café. Count me out.
Richard Busch
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bobser
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Yes Richard, you're correct, I did misunderstand you. Please accept my apologies.

However, it does seem apparent that many of the guys in here actually enjoy talking about and sharing information about hypnotherapy, so if everyone is happy and no-one is getting hurt, what's the problem?

I mean if you want to open up a thread about the Kennedys I will either join it cos' I like it or if I don't I won't write anything on it.
What I won't do is tell you and a dozen or so guys in here that it is my opinion you shouldn't be talking about it (albeit I would be puzzled as to why you wouyld want to discauss the Kennedys).

The world is changing... it's much free-er now. c'mon in, the water's warm!
And remember you mentioned uninformed opinions and disinformation. Well, there are a few experts (approved hypnotherapists)in here, so why don't you sit back and learn from them? It's free.

Bobser.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
shrink
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Richard I only clarified a quote by Bandler. I also believe that there is a lot if not more misinformation on the subject of hypnosis by not talking about it. Since stage hypnosis is very popular I think it is responsable to make it clear the real potential dangers. I also believe talking about (not teaching how) therapy can only be a good thing. To as many strangers as possible. Especially those tempted to take up hypnosis in the pursuit of entertainment. A natural progression would be to move into hypnotherapy. And while I agree a magic forum isn't the place for a hypnotherapy section there are many news groups devoted to the subject if you look for them. I don't see anything wrong with these newsgroups. Any form of hypnosis I have always recommend that you seek appropriate training.

Shrink
jimtron
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Scott Xavier:
Do you mind responding to my question from earlier in this thread, about what you meant by "both are equally guilty"?

Shrink:
Would you mind responding to my question about which psychotherapy techniques are intrusive and unhelpful?

Thanks,

Jim
shrink
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Jim: From an NLP point of view and personal perspective. Techniques that deal with content rather than process prolong a problem by re-inforcing the pattern that is causing the negative state. in Many cases certain problems can be resolved in a day rather than months. And in many cases even after many months no resolution at all. That is really all I will say as this really isn't the right place for discussing therapy.

Shrink

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