How did Steve Forte study to become so good when in his time of coming up there were no videos he could’ve learned from or were there? Who taught him? What books do you think he studied from and are they still out there for us to learn from? Why is he so good now and why is he still getting better when there is still no DVD/video out there of which he can learn from that exceeds his GPS or is there? I’d like to hear what ya’ll think…

Doc

I think that speculating is pointless.

If you want to know what Steve studied, you should ask Steve.

I think it proves there's more to all this than having a collection of videos.

Sorta shuts down the people who complain "If I only had such-and-such video, then I'd be as good as Forte."

I'd like to start off answering one of my own questions by saying that there is a better video/DVD out there that's better than Steve's GPS in my opinion and I'm one of probably 5 people that have it, I know because I made it and gave it to the rest at Steve's request because we all were there and yes Steve is the star of it and I'm a co-star and no ya'll can't have it because Steve told me not to let anyone have it and that includes you.

Sincerely

Doc

I bet Steve Forte did have his hands on the classic. "Expert at the Card Table".

Steve wrote a wonderful introduction to the Italian printing of Expert at the Card Table. I think this was reprinted in one of the magazines.....Genii I believe.

Gary

Hello, Doc.
This might answer you a bit. I once watched legendary Cardini's very rare private family home video. It is NOT a film of his appearing TV program. Cardini appeared several TV programs where he unfortunately was past his prime time althogh his act was far incredible and beyond imagination even then. Cardini was not a TV generation performer, but a vaudeville generation one. In that film, Cardini was in his prime time and privately practicing with cards and billiard balls. How was that? I couldn't say any word. I couldn't believe my eyes!!!!! I know masters like L.Burton and McBride. They are true masters of the art. However, Cardini's sleight of hand skill was very much like CG. For example a simple fake toss is a basic move for most magicians, but Cardini's looked the very miracle. I couldn't really believe that. Yes, it gave me the very same impact when I watched GPS for the first time. Additionally, in the film, Legendary Nelson Downs also showed several coin manipulation. No word, too!!! I thought how and where did they learn these. They were in their times when no video exsisted, let alone TV. Besides there were few books about conjuring compared to these days situation.
I hope this will help you a bit.

Sincerely,
Jay

Hi Doc

Have you read the interview at the Dealer site I put up he was answering to questions casino dealers etc were putting to him. The interview is interesting. Here is a question someone asked that he has not answered yet.

“Bruce, GR, New York
How did you got involved in casino gambling in the first place...
I recall reading that you were born on the East Coast and, according to Jim Keller's Foreword to the book, later, at the age of 28, you became the youngest casino manager in Vegas. What happened in between? What brought you to Vegas, and how did you catch the "casino bug"? How did someone with no Casino gaming experience learn to deal all of the games and advance through the ranks so quickly?”

He also mentions a new book on dice by “Stanford Wong”. I wondered when reading this name if he was “Hong Kong Wong” the famous cheat but I do not think so? “Stanford Wong”. book can be got in report form for $200 prior to the book being published.. I thought it might be of interest to you. Do you know Stanford Wong? He is regarded has an expert on Black Jack and has wrote a few books on it..

Regards

Tommy

Also did you know the guy who Deniro played in "Casino" the movie was a real guy and as far as I know is still around. I guess Steve would have known this guy.


Posted: Mar 9, 2005 7:02am
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http://www.frankleftyrosenthal.com/

Frank "Lefty" Rosenthal This is the guy "Ace" in "Casino".

http://www.dicedealer.com/steve_forte_interview.htm

This is the interview with Steve.

I think Bill hit the nail squarely on the head. Why ask other people to speculate when you can ask the man himself. Something that is pretty much a given, is that most top magicians work at all parts of their magic a lot more than enthusiasts.

How many hours a day did he practice?

I think you have to be a casino dealer to post on that board that Tommy is giving out.

Hi Doc,

The video's you have sound fantastic and probably contain unique and world beating gambling sleights. Personally, I already feel totally overwhelmed by the numerous sleights publically available via Steve Forte, Richard Turner, Ed Marlo, Darwin Ortiz, Andrew Wimhurst etc. It feels like these false shuffles, hops, hand mucks and false deals will keep me going for many years. And you never know, Steve might just reprise his GPS videos's with new updated DVD set....not that I'm holding my breath.

I thought I would rush in where angels fear to tread and speculate a little about Steve Forte. One thing I think I have noticed about him is that he seems a very modest man, even a little shy and diffident. On the other hand, he is clearly passionate about gambling and Casino management issues and has shown a single minded determination to become a top executive, consultant and expert interpreter of the labyrinth that is Casino security. If you put the qualities of a certain reserve or shyness together with driving single minded ambition, you get someone with a tremendous capacity to focus. Add in a natural flare for card manipulation, long hours spend training and working as a Vagas dealer, the opportunity to mix and share ideas with gamblers and hustlers of all walks of life, a burning curiosity to read and learn, long hours of solitary practice and you begin to get an idea of where Steve Forte's unique talent originates from. On top of that I seem to remember that his greatest passion is for dice!!!

With regard to books on sleight of hand, I'd go with 'Expert Card Technique', Buckleys 'Card Control' Marlo's three Riffle Shuffle System manuscripts and his 'Seconds, Centers and Bottoms', Fulves Riffle Shuffle Manuscripts and Erdnase's 'Expert at the Card Table'.

On the other hand, I could just be horribly and hopelessly wrong.

Regards,

Paul H

Steve who?

How do we really know if anyone, anyone, is as good as their reputation or hype?

This guy sounds good. Does he have lecture notes? I'm interested in rope magic and clowning.

If there's anybody (currently alive) more experienced in the subject matter than Steve then I'd like to know who it is!

A lot of people talk the talk, buy Steve's book and you'll see he walks it too.

The thing that makes Steve in a class of his own (IMO) is the breadth AND depth of his knowledge. Few can claim to be top card mechanics, he is that PLUS dice etc etc.

Also in my correspondance with him he is an extremely helpful and unassuming guy.

Breadth and depth of his knowledge relates to gambling moves. I would speculate that if he was a casino manager by 28 he would have had access to any cheat caught in Vegas also in the old days many of the top cheats were given jobs on the cat walks and he could have gained a wealth of knowledge from them. I know I would have if I had been him.

Tommy

Jay Elf regarding Cardini, Now that man was awesome. I have a magic video of him when he was on the Ed Sullivan show with the cigarettes and the coins and he’s absolutely incredible to watch. As a matter of fact I patterned my dice-switching device using the same style technique as Cardini.

Tommy thanks for this new info. I didn’t know anything about it and I’m glad you brought it to my attention. I very much appreciate it. Thanks

Tielie Steve does have all the Experts at the Card Table books on his shelf including Expert Card Technique.

Paul regarding those books and manuscripts yes he does have them on his bookshelf and Steve is awesome with dice and I mean awesome. The only thing that Steve couldn’t do was my dice switching move that I invented and showed this forum. Oh he couldn’t out shoot (controlled dice shooting) the guy that I showed him on my laptop but he still wins by a landslide.

Steve did study Darwin’s books and have every one of them on his bookshelf. Why wouldn’t Steve have Darwin books on his shelf when Darwin has the most magic books of any magician living? Darwin has historical books anyone would want to learn from including Steve Forte and Darwin utilizes this knowledge in his books therefore Darwin’s books are a great source for information and historical facts.

As I stated along time ago Steve Forte has all of Darwin’s book on his bookshelf and Darwin has all of Steve’s video/book. This shows the respect that each one of them has for one another’s talents. Did not at one time Darwin testify for Steve?

Winstonwolf you are 100% correct in everything you wrote but you forgot to say that he also has the money to prove it too.


Point well taken. I believe he did and just like you I would’ve gotten knowledge from them too.

Hey ya’ll thanks for your post, I’m learning new things as ya’ll post this was the reason I made this up so we all can learn old and new things together.

Keep the post coming some of them are very informative.

Doc

P.S. Mr Z Sorry....

Also Doc I recall Dustin Marks the Black Jack cheat saying that he, “Dustin” went to dealer school in Vegas and had learnt his moves from the top magicians based there. Vegas is the magic capitol of the world not just the gambling capitol. Learning Forte stuff must be easier working there, from the inside so to speak.

Tommy

I think it is precisely because he didn't have videos that he had a chance to become excellent at gambling sleights, for the reason that his mind was therefore not clouded by someone else's visual interpretation of the words in the books. Whether he understood or misunderstood the verbal descriptions, he had to process them in his mind, and was forced to use his own discrimination to decide whether or not he was doing a move in a way that would fool anybody. He had to "be natural" in his execution of sleights because he had no other (inferior)role model to copy.

Well this is only a theory. It is equally amazing to me that anyone who did not have the tool of the video camera could be objective enough about whether his moves were good enough to fool anyone, because nearly all of us blink at the key moment when we use a mirror. So another quality he must have possessed was supreme objectivity toward his own strengths and weaknesses and very little ego in the sense of needing to be right when he himself could see the flaws in his own work.Thus he was able to correct those flaws.

This topic is really not about Steve Forte at all. It is about us. As others pointed out, how could we know what Steve Forte went through? What matters is what we go through. To become excellent at anything. I believe it is idiosyncratic for every individual.