Nikodini,

all personal opinions are respected. Thanks for your statetement... it's always educational to see how strangers perceive other people's behaviour. Negative or positive feedback make us learn.

You seem to share the same values with Alewishus about brown-nosing. I personally share the same opinion with Doc. In fact, in many ways I think the same like Doc. If you don't know the background of my relationship with Doc, I suppose that you can assume that I'm brown-nosing. It's unwise to jump to conclusions though... It shows your lack of perspective.

Your example with the FBI agent also shows how little you know about hustling and conning. Your limited experience makes you "find things funny". It's not your fault though; but you don't want to advertise your ignorance, do you?

And as Doc says, stirring get things moving and questions answered.

Doc,

feelings are mutual... (Bloody ****, I'm brown-nosing again )

Dear Yiannis,
Thank you for your information.
I can open the page but can't watch the demos. I don't know why.
Anyway thank you for your kindness, Yiannis.

Sincerely,
Jay

It is true that advantage play is more head than hands stuff . I could name some of the very best Advantage Heads in the USA and they eat any card manipulators for breakfast, always have and always will. These guys travelled around the USA and sucked up the money like a sponge and left states dry. You will find them in Vegas with their pictures in the hall of fame and playing in the biggest cash game in town. Play in that game and expect to loose $5 million a year if your lucky.

Tommy

Tommy,

You won't learn moves in the book if that's what you are looking for. It is very interesting though in other respects. It does go into a lot of advantage playing as well as a summary of moves that can be used for cheating although it does not explain the moves. I have been reading the sections on card counting and shuffle tracking which is quite interesting from a gambling perpestive. Does it have any magical applications. Well yes and no. If you plan on doing gambling demonstrations it will give a lot of knowledge about the different methods of cheating and advantage play. I don't consider advantage play cheating and neither do the courts unless you are using mechanical and or electronic devices. I is also food for thought about getting into and out of a move or sleight since this is what these guys have to be excellent at.

In a funny way, it gives you a lot of respect for what some of these cheaters have pulled off. Clever thinking and a lot of guts. It does show that scams get pulled off that you would think were impossible and for large sums of money. I guess this psychology gives merit to magical applications as well. It's the guys who are pros at the subtle things that make a difference and not necessarily the technique. This is something that you definately cannot learn from a book and is a definite skill.

All in all, I do not regret purchasing this book and find it to be valuable and I feel it has positive uses for magic. Although, if you are looking at how to do bottom deal then this is not for you.

I also have GPS but have not had time to view as of yet since I received them both on Friday and was reading the book in the small amounts of free time that I had. I can give a comparison of the two in a couple of weeks.

Dave

By Advantage Play I mean what is just tuched on in GPS ie crossfire and best hand play. There are far more sophistcated methods than what is mentioned in GPS. The guys I speak of are masters at it. It has nothing to do with manipulation of cards and is not legal but impossible to prove in a court without a confession.

Thanks for the info on the book. I am interested in shuffle tracking but for pokeer and a single deck not for black jack and more than one deck. Does the book cover that? Shuffle Tracking is legal in any game as far as I know as it is based on mere observation of cards and how they are shuffled.

Tommy

Tommy,

I goes into a fair amount of information on shuffle tracking related to Black Jack and reference a book shuffle tracking cookbook which Forte explains as being an excellent book on the subject.

The book explains advantage play as card counting, slug tracking, shuffle tracking, and bet spreads. It is not illegal as has been confirmed by previous court cases, although you can get brushed if caught. If the guys you are referring to are experts, then they would certainly know the in and outs of doing it to not get caught. The book does go over this.

I found these topics to be interesting and eye opening at that.

Dave

Steve Forte's new book shows if you want to cheat a casino, you'll probably be more successful if you work with a crew. Having others to misdirect the dealer and the pit boss makes the scam less detectable. I was surprised how much of the cheating depends on having others help you (including often the dealer wittingly or unwittingly) and to a lesser extent on the skills of a mechanic.

Thanks very much for the info Dave.

I do think you miss the point of the guys I refer to. They are not card counters shuffle trackers or any of that but experts in exploiting the advantage of collusion in playing poker. They are experts who do not use manipulation of cards to gain an unfair advantage but by knowing each others cards. The information is like insider info and dealing on the stock exchange to these guys only because they are expert at using it to their advantage.
Having a puppet is no good if you do not know what strings to pull and when. These guys are puppet masters and have been pulling the strings for decades. These guys are not low profile they are the gun shumokers of poker.

Tommy

Tommy,

There is many ways to cheat and the non sleight of hand methods sometimes are the best. They can be hard to detect and prove.

Dave

I knew an old pool hustler ounce who won more money than the world champion. He said the world champion can beat me 9 times 10 but it is not about who wins the most games, it is who wins the most money that tells you who is the best.
There is only one way at the card table to measure the best way: Who has got the most chips and how did they get them! You can be Doc , Forte, Scott and Erdnase rolled into one but if you are not getting the most chips, you an’t the best.

Such is life.

Tommy

I still fail to see what the point of this thread is... other than tooting your own horn. Steve Forte's email is on his website and you can ask him how he got so good. Wanna hear my take on it? He has a lot of "friends" who are cheaters and he learns the moves from them, and then he betrays their confidence (like a true confidence man) and divulges their methods and makes some serious cash in the process. ($200 for a book?! gimme a break) And, the kicker is, the cheater friends still idolize the guy! Gotta love this business model.

Yannis, you're making it look even worse for yourself. "It shows your lack of perspective" Huh?! Perspective, in your case, is pretty narrow.

Well, Steve doesn't need anybody defending him and how he became knowledgeable of gaming protection and advantage play; but, it might be wise Nikodini to adhere to the old adage: "'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." You clearly are speaking of something about which you have no knowledge.

You might actually research the subject a little, in this case, Steve Forte, before you provide a "take" on such subject. Just a thought...

"Steve Forte's email is on his website and you can ask him how he got so good."

You think he will give an answer. Well you go and ask him and let us know what he said. please.

What a thread!

;)

Nikodini!!

You are really so, adorable...

That old adage should be advice to real cheats. And if you all are such huge experts on Steve Forte, what's Steve's real last name?

[quote]On 2005-04-18 18:12, Nikodini wrote:
($200 for a book?! gimme a break) And, the kicker is, the cheater friends still idolize the guy! Gotta love this business model.

I have the book and it was worth the money to me. I have medical textbooks that cost $300 each and certainly not as enjoyable to read.

Whenever there's an interesting thread from Doc, and I personally find his commentary very interesting, it ALWAYS seems to get obscured by the wannabes sucking up.

It always seems to come down to "Well, I know more about cheater X than you do...so take that!". Along the lines of an above post, neither Doc nor Steve need the wannabes defending them.

There IS something called a "Life". Most people have one.

Dave

Don't bother man, we won't allow logic around here!

Yeah Doc, you got a kick out of that one.