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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Leonardo DA VINCI (b. 1452, Vinci, Republic of Florence [now in Italy]--d. May 2, 1519, Cloux, Fr.),
Hundreds of years later people can still see the masterpiece of art that he produced “The Mona Lisa”. They see it and appreciate what an artist he was. Arguably, one could say, because of this painting, he is immortal. Compare that to a great magician and ask, "What art does he leave for the people to see and appreciate after he is dead?" The art he produced was a performance of magic. Those who saw it will remember it as great art, but who will remember and appreciate it when they are dead. So this brings me to the question: Will films of the performance of great magic in the future be regarded as great works of art and immortalize the magician? Should magicians all be putting there performances onto DVD for art sake? Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
Big Daddy Cool Inner circle 1604 Posts |
Not such a bad idea...
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
How many artists of note are there in a generation or an age? Leonardo was one of a kind. As were Albert Einstein and Josef Albers and Joan Miro. There are always plenty of compentant craftsman to keep the market happy, but in this case I am talking about artists, those who explore new territory and offer new and moving experiences.
The works and performances of most magicians are about as useful as a box of wheaties. The slight variations and brand image changes with the personalities presented are equally facile and ultimately impertinant to the wheaties in the box in this example, and the feeling of magic and possibilities that are fundamental to our craft. How many times do we need to see reruns of episodes of Bozo the clown doing some magic before we start to notice that he kept a break in the pile of bills when he did the counting routine etc? Sure there will be special things in magic in any generation. We pretty much lost John Ramsay and Dai Vernon and Al Goshman with just scant records on film. We can do better with Johnny Thompson and Mr Electric and perhaps Fred Kaps and ... As to most of our student efforts at exploring classic effects, our small variations on themes and our fumbling steps and good storytelling... please let them fade into oblivion. The few good results we might achieve can be written up in books, and captured on video in good time. It really does take a few years of performing a routine to iron out the kinks and smooth the flow of entertainment for our audiences.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Performance artists must find an audience while they are still alive. Maskelyne and Devant pointed this out more than 100 years ago.
Unlike the sculpters and painters, magicians do not leave behind the spirit of the art that gives life to their work. Video and film can rarely capture such a thing--you will not understand Al Jolson by watching "The Jazz Singer." This spirit only exists between the performer and his live audience, and is not something that can be captured on film or in cinema. You have to feel the presence of the performer, and know that he can see and hear you. It might be dangerous to tangle with him. He might be looking at you and seeing that you understand him. Live performance is a onetime deal. It is as ephemeral as ice sculpture or smoke rings. |
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Fair comment. However some great work by magicians, like some great painters work, my not be thought of as great until long after they are gone. At least there is a vehicle now for any artist great or not to record his work for posterity. I just think it is a shame that we can see little of the old masters on film. I say we, meaning we fans. Yes a live performance is better than a film but a film is better than nothing. I give you an example in “Cardini” the little film we have him is treasured by many and this small piece of film generates new fans who see it and keeps his memory alive.
Regards Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Oh I don't know about that. I am very grateful for the video footage of my Dad that I have. The reason is that because of video my kids can at least get a look at their grand-dad do magic and some of what he did for a living.
I feel the same way about other past performers. True it is on a small TV and often the video is not as great as when they were alive performing live. But it is a small window to the past and we can learn from it.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
Yes, I am so grateful for what has been captured on film and DVD. No, it's not as good as a live performance. Maybe, it's better to record magic in front of a live audience to capture some of the spirit of the performance--magic being completely different from the art of painting, sculpture, or even film-making, all which are artifacts rather than performance art...
peace, alan
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Yes, I am not saying that magicians should stop performing live but their live performance should be recorded.
Glen. The TV pictures need not be small today they have digital projectors that project a tv/dvd picture onto a wall screen and that is like having a cinema in your living room. I would like one of these and they are not that expensive now. http://www.homecinemaexp.com/gallery/hc_17.jpg Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Fans are free to seek out their objects of worship, say travel to MA and spend time with Mickey or visit Las Vegas and watch Armando when he gets back from Europe.
One of the problems with recording magic, is not so much the fan but the copyist. Those who invent things are not always so eager to aped by others. Now for some good news: FISM is filmed and other events are starting to offer DVD hilights videos. That may serve your purpose of catching some of the better acts of today and saving them for admiration tomorrow.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Cool, I love watching live shows far more than films. People who are gone can not perform live, that is the point. As for the copyist, if painters or actors thought that way they would never show a painting or a film. Who would want a copy of the Mona Lisa anyway a lookalike actor, not an art lover I think. Likwise a magic fan wants to see the original.
"objects of worship" Don't kid yourself. You magicians are not that good. We fans just like you. Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
Vick Inner circle It's taken me 10+ years to make 1120 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-03-12 17:46, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I am very happy to be one Quote:
The works and performances of most magicians are about as useful as a box of wheaties. The slight variations and brand image changes with the personalities presented are equally facile and ultimately impertinent to the wheaties in the box in this example, and the feeling of magic and possibilities that are fundamental to our craft. Guess I glad not most ;-) At this time what is getting me off the most is the smiles, wonderment and maybe even a return of a sense of awe. Furthermore spreading illusion, getting more people interested in seeing new illusions and maybe knocking some of the dust off of some of the current public perception of (ugh) magicians brings joy Quote:
Sure there will be special things in magic in any generation. We pretty much lost John Ramsay and Dai Vernon and Al Goshman with just scant records on film. We can do better with Johnny Thompson and Mr Electric and perhaps Fred Kaps and ... and that is sad but... there are those who learned from Vernon (and others)who in turn are my influences so to some degree they remain with us beyond books and film Quote:
As to most of our student efforts at exploring classic effects, our small variations on themes and our fumbling steps and good storytelling... please let them fade into oblivion. The few good results we might achieve can be written up in books, and captured on video in good time. It really does take a few years of performing a routine to iron out the kinks and smooth the flow of entertainment for our audiences. Very true and the large majority of our current generation won't be remembered as Immortal Magicians as neither will the overwhelming majority of musicians playing today be "immortal" How to become one? I'm really not sure Perhaps your born with abilities, intellect, imagination. You invent, push perceptions and boundaries, throw away most of what you see to create what you dream. You have courage and conviction, a whole lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time Billy Idol decided to be an Idol so he called himself one, will he be immortal on the scale of Beethoven or John Lennon? No, but it did work for a while
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Singers make records, Painters make paintings and Actors make films. The things these artists make can be enjoyed long after they are dead. The magician makes magic, and like a puff of smoke it is gone! Other magicians come after them and look for the smoke and create more smoke. For those fans who would like to see a performance of a great but dead magician, it is as difficult as seeing through smoke and mirrors.
Look at Ricky Jay how much film of him performing magic is there and who will enjoy his work in 100 years time if there is none. Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Great post Tommy, I second your thoughts.
It would be a dull world for magic enthusiasts, if it wasn't possible to enjoy captures of great magicians long gone. Of course I agree, having 'captures' is not the same then experiencing a life performance. The problem just is, that some of the really great magicians where long gone before one was able to se them working, another factor is, that some might live in a 'long distance away country', working solely professionally and so never had the time to frequent conventions and giving lectures..their work was, what all magicians should aim for, performing for 'normal' ppl, and not the nuts playing with magic I enjoy tremendously, watching captures of some of the great ones long gone, and I enjoy it nevertheless I also had the pleasure to se them working life and even to talking with them...it brings back nice and great memories... BTW, my thoughts re being an 'immortal' magician needs basically 2 things.. Displaying incredible entertaining magic, as well as being original in what one does. These are the basics, one has to stand out of the 'crowd' of fellow magicians. We all know the names of those who did...
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
enriqueenriquez Inner circle New York 1287 Posts |
There is very little record of the great magicians from the past. Technically speaking would be great to be able to watch them performing. If you are related to them, family speaking, it will ben nice to see the tapes.
But for the general public, there is nothing more powerful than myths. Sadly, tape recording do very little justice to myths. Just my two cents. |
Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
Elvis Impersonators attempt to recreate for the audience an experience of a master singer/performer. With varying success but none actually do so.
Magicians do the same with Merlin. (or choose your own starting point) As a 'collected' artist, I can say, most of us attempt to recreate (with adjustment) the works of nature or 'God' (whichever you choose). A Re-creation will always be just that...though many times satisfying and a tremendous achievement...still... There are only so many colors the eye can percieve or sounds the ear can hear and there is much truth in the old saying 'There is nothing new under the Sun'. Films captured the work of Chaplin and Keaton and the work of Channing Pollack and Houdini. It's as close as we can get to the real thing as we continue to re-produce everything that has gone before...and everything HAS gone before. There are re-inventors along the way and these we will remember, some more than others. I saw Elvis 'live'...and Dunninger 'live'...electric moments to be sure...I also saw Lance Burton 'live', not so electric...the magic being in the 'presence' and power of the persona...the power of the stroke of the brush or the power of sheer forceful personality that can stop the coversation of a room they walk into. Never mind the tricks they do or the silly songs they sing...it will always be, as another old saying goes, The Singer not the Song. Doug
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
While it is a thrill to see a video of a legendary magician performing their signature effect it is also sad to know that this is just shadows and light. An imperfect replication of an uncopyable event. No technology known to man can perfectly capture that inextricable and intangible moment created by the performance of live theatre. Each presentaion is unique and of itself and once it's finished it remains only in the memories of those who participated in it production and once they are gone it is gone forever.
Immortality for the performing artist is unattainable. Superstars of the 19th century such as Edmund Keene and Sarah Bernhardt are all but forgotten now and the great's of the previous centuries are totally unheard of outside of theatre history classes. Even superstars of a decade ago are all but forgotten by the general public until they appear on some washed up celebrity FOX reality show. This is the price we pay for bringing joy into the hearts of humanity one person at a time.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
There are magicians who create magic for tv and film, and their work may be an entirely different matter. David Blaine, for example, will probably always exist primarily in the video arena--his magic almost demands it.
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