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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Is this legal??? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Steve Dela
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Very different in the UK.
I believe you can make coppies for personal use and as back ups.

In Magic
Steve Dela
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jstone
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If you bought any of your VHS from L&L, they have a deal where they give you a discount on the DVD equivelant. All you have to do is scan or photocopy the vhs case and send it to them. You can then get the DVD for $20.

That's what I'll be doing with most of mine. THen I'll sell the VHS on eBay. So hopefully I'll come close to breaking even and not breaking laws (pun fully intended).
Daegs
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God..... Wow.... lot of mis-information being given out.

If you buy something that has a copyright on it, you are allowed to make a backup of that material in case the original is destroyed.

Quote:
Section 117 authorizes "the making of another copy . . . for archival purposes only . . ." Section 117 also advises that "all archival copies" should be destroyed if possession of the original ceases to be rightful.


This phrasing makes it clear that there could be more than one archival copy around.

SO:

You are *legally* allowed to backup your Video to DVD under fair use.

Personally I feel you could then just watch the DVD and keep the video for backup purposes, however because of the wording that might not be exactly what the law intended for.


So, if you want to follow the law exactly, make a video copy and a dvd copy, then burn the original.

You are then allowed to use the DVD archival copy in the same way as the original, and the tape would then become your archival copy.
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Who let the Daegs out! You beat me to it!
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Bizarrist
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Ingenious. This thread just keeps getting better.

My take on the whole thing falls right in line with Daegs quotes of Section 117 of the US Copyright law. I mean after all I make backup/archival copies of my DVD's with software I purchased legally to do it, DVD XCopy Platinum. It works great and asks you before the copy process if the DVD is borrowed or rented. Answering NO to this question will allow you to make the copy. The whole thing is really based on ethics and honor.

Jstone's comments about L&L's deal sounds pretty good. After you go out and spend the cash for the equipment and software to make a dvd from vhs tape, not counting the endless hours of your time to do it, you can just about replace your whole vhs tape collection cheaper and with a WHOLE lot less aggravation. And of course despite what you do the quality will always be better. And ofcourse it supports the performers and producers of these products.

I only have a problem with the whole thing when Section 117 is not adhered to. The lure of buying cheap vhs tapes and making a dvd copy then selling the vhs tape here or perhaps on ebay and keeping your secret magic "bootleg" dvd's for your personal study could be fairly strong.

At the end of the day...Let your conscience be your guide, grasshopper.

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The Most Beautiful Experience We Can Have is the Mysterious.
MagicT
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Just do it and see what happens, geez...




Trini
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Jaz
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Trini,
You just beat me to it.

Close the blinds, turn off the lights, lock the doors and
JUST DO IT!!
NJJ
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You have to take into account a variety of factors

1) Where was the original made?
2) Where was the original purchased?
3) What will you do with the copy?
4) What will you do with the original

UK Copyright laws says it is illegal to make a copies of materials unless

* Private and research study purposes.
* Performance, copies or lending for educational purposes.
* Criticism and news reporting.
* Incidental inclusion.
* Copies and lending by librarians.
* Acts for the purposes of royal commissions, statutory enquiries, judicial proceedings and parliamentary purposes.
* Recording of broadcasts for the purposes of listening to or viewing at a more convenient time, this is known as time shifting.
* Producing a back up copy for personal use of a computer program.
* Playing sound recording for a non profit making organisation, club or society.

However, all of this only applies to items under UK copyright.

If you buy a US tape from the UK then the warning at the start of the video becomes irrelevant as you are no longer under US law. However, if you were to copy hundreds of videos and sell them then the FBI would certainly enlist the help of the British Government in bringing you to justice.

At the end of the day, it MIGHT be against the law but who really cares. Can you imagine L&L publishing hunting down some guy in the UK because he transfered his videos to DVD? Of course not!
Yiannis
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You guys, are still buying?
Joey Stalin
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Cause you know... "they" are watching you all the time. All the time! *shifty eyes*
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See you space cowboy...
jstone
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Quote:
On 2005-04-03 19:53, Jaz wrote:
Trini,
You just beat me to it.

Close the blinds, turn off the lights, lock the doors and
JUST DO IT!!


Yeah, just do it. Don't think about the Consequences. Who cares about ethics; Don't worry about trying to do the right thing; who gives a crap about morals any way. While your at it, pull some slieght of hand on the cashier at the grocery store and pay less for your groceries.

It's only a crime if you get caught. Who cares about the guy who worked his butt off to create the material and share it with his fellow magicians at a measley $30 for the price of the vhs.

Just do it. Who cares about your integrity; just do it; stopping for a moment to think about if you're doing the right thing is stupid.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't believe you guys. Frankly I applaud Dirko for asking the question. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that it is not illegal and that copyright laws allow you to make copies and even sell them. At least Dirko had the decency to ask the question before he did it.

Most of you responded by making fun of him for even asking. I think that's sad. He was doing a good thing by trying to protect the interest of those who created the videos, and rather than simply answering his question, many of your just basically told him (in not so many words) that he was stupid for asking, and that he should do it regardless of the laws or ethics.

To be fair, however, some of you did answer it more honorably, as was pointed out by Daegs, I was wrong about what the law was. I stand corrected on that. And at least Daegs didn't tell Dirko to ignore his concern about the ethics of the decision.

I think that Daegs's answer is what Dirko was looking for. He just wanted to know if it was legal; Daegs researched it and answered it without telling Dirko he should just ignore his conscience.

Anyway, I'll stop ranting, and this post probably sounds a lot angrier than I meant it to, so I apologize if that's the case.
Nick23
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Quote:
Yeah, just do it. Don't think about the Consequences. Who cares about ethics; Don't worry about trying to do the right thing; who gives a crap about morals any way.


When it just comes down to morals and ethics, if your opinion differs from his, you opinion is no more right than his.

Quote:
While your at it, pull some slieght of hand on the cashier at the grocery store and pay less for your groceries.


No, this is completely different. He has already paid for the video, he isn't stealing it.

People always get so up tight on here. Almost every thread turns into a flame war as soon as someone disagrees with something you say. RELAX PEOPLE!
Nothing I do can't be done by a 10-year-old...with 15 years of practice."
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another guest
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There have been a heated debate in TechTV already about this topic. They say if you buy the tape, it is yours and you can do anything about it.
House
jstone
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Quote:
On 2005-04-03 22:42, Nick23 wrote:
When it just comes down to morals and ethics, if your opinion differs from his, you opinion is no more right than his.


Believe it or not, I actually agree with you. In fact, you're actually supporting my point. Clearly other people had a different opinion from Dirko's, but they still chose to "make fun" of him for asking the question. I don't care if Dirko copies the videos or not... that's his call, not mine, but he was asking a question of ethics, and rather than answers, he got people telling him not to worry about ethics.
Craig Ousterling
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BTW: 3..2..1.. studios lost the war with the entertainment industry. Xcopy (exprss and platinum) are no longer legally sold. For those who are unhappy about this fact- check out *COUGHCOUGHDVDSHRINKCOUGHCOUGH* whoa... excuse me... time for more halls with menthal. I think they're on version 3.2 now?

And there is a BIG difference between copying a VHS tape for a "backup"and dumping it into your computer for creating a DVD and adding chapters so it would be easier to navigate through instead of a clunky old VCR with just PLAY REWIND and FAST FORWARD.

~Craig
jstone
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Quote:
jstone said:
While your at it, pull some slieght of hand on the cashier at the grocery store and pay less for your groceries.

Nick32 said:
No, this is completely different. He has already paid for the video, he isn't stealing it.

People always get so up tight on here. Almost every thread turns into a flame war as soon as someone disagrees with something you say. RELAX PEOPLE!


If it were illegal to copy the videos, then my grocery store analogy isn't different. They would both be illegal. As it turns out, it's not illegal to copy for personal archives, as I said earlier, I stand corrected. My concern wasn't about what's right or what's wrong, but rather, it was about someone who had a legitimate concern, but people, rather than helping answer is question, told him (in not so many words) that he shouldn't have even asked the question.

As far as the flame war goes, I tried to be fair by mentioning both the people who poked fun at Dirko and those who were legitimately trying to help. I also apologized in advance for sounding angry.

I again apologize. I'm not trying to start a war. I agree with you NICK32, that if someone has a different opinion that it's ok. I often have people tell me that I'm ridiculous because I follow the speed limit. I have never imposed my desire to follow the speed limit on anyone else, yet I'm constantly having the idea of breaking the speed limit imposed on me.

Same goes with Dirko's question. He asked a valid question (at least it was valid to him, and maybe a few others). He wasn't imposing his "belief" about copyright laws on anyone else, yet he recieved comments like:

Dirko: I sincerely hope - for your sake - you are simply wondering about this, and are not genuinely worried that you may be breaking the law... - by Ross Welford

If you're doing it for yourself, then who cares! - by Niko (obviously Dirko cares)

It's only a crime if you get caught. - by Jonathan Townsend

Just do it and see what happens, geez... - by MagicT

Anyway, Maybe I read more into those comments than was really intended. If so, please accept my humble apologies. I'm not trying to force anything on anyone, and I honestly have no problem with people disagreeing with me. I was just standing up for Dirko's sincere concern about the ethics involved in the magic community. Again, I applaud him for asking the question.
LobowolfXXX
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Just so the moral relativists don't run away with the entire election, for what it's worth, I disagree with both of you. While one's moral intuition or intellectual acuity may fail to guide one to the correct moral position, that position nonetheless exists. The law of the excluded middle (binary propositions are either true or false; not both, and not neither) applies to moral questions as well. If two people believe incompatible things about a moral premise, then one of them is wrong.


Quote:
On 2005-04-03 23:56, jstone wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-04-03 22:42, Nick23 wrote:
When it just comes down to morals and ethics, if your opinion differs from his, you opinion is no more right than his.


Believe it or not, I actually agree with you. In fact, you're actually supporting my point. Clearly other people had a different opinion from Dirko's, but they still chose to "make fun" of him for asking the question. I don't care if Dirko copies the videos or not... that's his call, not mine, but he was asking a question of ethics, and rather than answers, he got people telling him not to worry about ethics.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
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NealCoffey
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Quote:
On 2005-04-03 18:25, Daegs wrote:
God..... Wow.... lot of mis-information being given out.

If you buy something that has a copyright on it, you are allowed to make a backup of that material in case the original is destroyed.

Quote:
Section 117 authorizes "the making of another copy . . . for archival purposes only . . ." Section 117 also advises that "all archival copies" should be destroyed if possession of the original ceases to be rightful.


Very nice creative editing, Daegs. Your ellipses leave out quite a bit of important information, though. Emphasis mine in the following quote:

Quote:
... it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:
(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or
(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.


So you see, that section of copyright law refers exclusively to computer programs, which a VHS tape is not.

However, if you are copying a VHS tape to DVD for your own personal, private use, and are retaining your copy of the original VHS tape, I fail to see any moral problem in making such a copy, regardless of its legality.

Remember, what's right/moral isn't always legal (and what's legal isn't always right/moral), but that's a topic for another message board.
Pants99
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"Satan made me do it" -Always works for me!!! Hell, it's even worked for some murderers!!!
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Daegs
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Ok... Don't get me off on a rant here, but let's delve into a little more the actual spirit of the copyright.

I do want to mention I am not a lawyer and that you cannot and should not use any advice here other than the quoted US code to make any legal decisions.(this is what you call a disclaimer... but I won't steer you wrong Smile )

All copyright law is only ment to apply to how your actions affect the market and whether there is any finacial gain to yourself by your actions.

In simple terms, once you buy something you can do anything you want to it as long as you don't show, give, or make availible to anyone else.

You can edit something, make 200000 copies, and do whatever you want with it and it will all be perfectly LEGAL as the owner of that particular copy of the copyrighted material.

Legallity only comes into it when you show, sell or give away the material or ownership.

If you sell your ownership of a particular copy of a copyrighted material, you must destroy all copies, because since you aren't the owner all those copies are now illegal.

But as long as you remain owner of the legal copy of the material(what you bought), you can do whatever you want with it.

First off, my quote *was* incorrect but simply quoted because while it is from the section on computer, but the same basic properties hold true for all copyrighted works(only not stated implicitly for other types, making *private* copies is perfectly legal)

Here is a quote about fair use in regards to ALL types of copyrighted material:

Quote:
In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.


You should note 1+4. Because it is for non-profit, and the purpose and character come into it, you have no problems... and the 4th is no issue because you won't affect the market AT ALL by your actions.


Here is the criminal US code in dealing with copyrights:

Quote:
(a) Criminal Infringement.— Any person who infringes a copyright willfully either—
(1) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain, or
(2) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000,


Now first off, I want to state again that copying a video from VHS to DVD for your private personal use isn't even a infringement of someone else's copyright.

However, if it was, you still would not be criminally liable because it is not for a purpose of finacial gain or commercial advantage. And you haven't reproduced or distrubuted the material at all.



The main point is that copyright law only comes into effect once you distrubute, lend, give or sell the copyrighted works to another person.

So while "what you do in your own home is your buisness" may not sound like good legal device, in the case of copyright law it is dead on.

As long as you aren't distruting any of the copyrighted works and your actions don't affect the market, you are NOT doing anything illegal.

You can read the copyright law if you want, and you should come to the same conclusion.
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