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Lance Pierce Special user 878 Posts |
When it comes to "presentation," are we presenting the effect...or ourselves?
TCR |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
Hi,
I think that when you walk up to the table and say "Hi, My name is ***** I am a professional magician ect ect" Then in a way that is presentation, You have given yourself the Motive to tear up that card. after all to them that's the sort of things magicians do. Phillip |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Pabi--
That is an interesting statement you attribute to PH, who does as many jokes per trick as any magician I've ever seen. Are you sure you understood him correctly?
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
This topic is always enjoyable to read.
Let's review presentation from the "movie perspective" B&W silent movies were entertaining and a novelty, then came the piano music and written words, to the famous talkies. Remember the Wizard of Oz started out in B&W then when Dorothy arrived in OZ it was in Color, it had every element of the day to present an entertaining magical story. Today, we magicians must compete with digital wizardry like Jurassic Park. So much for the rabbit out of the hat trick. Much of movie presentation is "implied" as Peter stated. We can do "a trick", we see it at every magic meeting, "Want see a card trick?" It is enjoyable to certain individuals, try it on your wife and you get a different reaction...and she is really echoing the thoughts of many others. If you're trying to come off like you posess a special power that others don't have, that is egotism, not magic. What is a good presentation? When a person or persons leave a show, and you have changed their lives even for a short period of time, and their jaws hurt from laughter, or they have a smile ear to ear, or their life has been enriched with an evening of joy, then you have entertained them. You have PRESENTed an art form for their enjoyment. This internal feeling others get, from which you have externally displayed can't be done without presentation. It can be done by a "look" or by a "movement" or by "words" or by "music" or any combination of these. Magic is a medium for which one can bring out this internal feeling in others, so is clowning, balloon sculptor, so is movies, and theater shows, and ballet. Most people want to feel good, it is your job to do something to trigger that feeling. Now that's presentation. If you can't see this, or by listening can't hear this, then you missed the connection with your audience. Every trick has this ability, it is your job to find it in that trick and bring it forth to your audience.
Dennis Michael
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Pabi New user South Dakota 48 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-10-06 04:13, Scott F. Guinn wrote: Yea, I know that he has a lot of jokes and stuff. He talks about it in his 'Art of Astonishment' series, and says its not right for every situation, but it is an interesting read. He said its one of those things 'He's still trying to do himself' and he still argues with himself about 'Peforming to only entertain vs. performing only to astonish" Pabi |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
Pabi,
I do not know what country you are in But international magic in the UK have a video "international Tamariz lecture No 2" On this video, as well as some fine effects, Tamariz gives a lot of info on the positioning of humour in magic as to strenthen rather than Distract from the impact of the effects Phillip |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Possibly inadvertently, Den has come up with the best example of all.
You go to a movie. The plot has a beginning, a middle, and an end. This is how it should be. The film is NOT a bunch of unconnected scenes, with no connecting plot line. Same with magic presentation. You do a trick that has a beginning, middle, and end -- a plot line, either explained or implied. To simply do a bunch of tricks isn't magic; it's juggling of a sort! Nothing wrong with that -- but don't try to pretend it's magic! |
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Mike Robbins Elite user Anchorage, Alaska 447 Posts |
I think movies are a great example. I'm sure we've all seen movies that were pretty much nothing more than an hour and a half of special effects interrupted occasionally by someone speaking. Those are the type of movies that are soon forgotten.
But a movie that judiciously uses the special effects so that they become part of, and enhance, the whole can often become a classic. Mike
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
Shakespeare |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Back to the movies...
The question of just entertain vs just astonish is just too theoretical. If a movie opts to purely entertain by any means it will become chaotic in its attempts to simply entertain at all costs. There were movies like "The Kentuckey Fried Movie" which did this. Totally obscure now because it was a momentary event. It harbored to a momentary frame of humor, to a fragmented audience, at a tiny sliver of the passing of time. At the time it was successful, for what was considered success then. The same fate awaits most of the video game character movies of today. Quite frankly they are only vehicles of immediate commercialism. Now take a documentary, whose only purpose is to inform at the expense, possibly, of entertainment. They too can achieve success at their desired goal. They also may achieve longevity if interest in their information survives the ravages of time. But are either what we would call great movies. Are either still a part of the collective of society today, ten...twenty...fifty...or even a hundred years later? If your desire is to create something of lasting importance, you must have elements of both. In magic you must have both presentation and craft. You must have both entertainment and astonishment. But most of all you must have a point to what you are doing. A point of societal importance. What do you want your audience to take away from your performance. It is what they take away that will draw them back and energize them to fill others with the desire to see you. What could be more commercial than that. Yet at the same time if you answer that question with honest and true caring for your audience, you are creating so much more than just commercialism. If your goal is just to be funny, there are plenty of funny trick monkeys out there. Heck there are plenty of funny other monkeys out there too. Unless your funny is very uniquely you, you will be just another chuckle getter. Likewise, if your goal is just to "astonish" your audience, there are plenty of really good trick monkeys out there who do that as well. They throw mind boggling puzzle after puzzle out there to "astonish" their audience. Problem is they give no care to how that will affect their audience. Not to mention they seem completely unimpressed by their "impuzzlbilities". They are pushers of the astonishment drug without preparing people for the experience and the after experience. This is something that Paul Harris touches on in AoA, and something which Eric Mead implements in his astonishment shows. You can find the most astonishing thing in the world but eventually that becomes common place. Very quickly in today's society in fact. So the only thing you really have to differentiate yourself is your message, your presentation. What is it that you give to your audience? |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Tom's post, above, pretty well says it all!
:cheers: |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
While at the Kidabra Conference, I got to "really" see Terry Evanswood show in Pigon Forge, TN. What stood above all is the way he connected with the audience.
The audience is everything!!!, No connection, no valid presentation. Even Jeff Corbin connects, even though its not real, he's got them convinced. At the Spotlight Spectular Convention, in the Poconos, one magician performed a series of tricks. He did them well, but they were nothing more than a series of tricks performed to music. It could not beat out, a polished act which presented tricks that seem related, silks and doves with appropriate music. Now I understand this is from one perspective mine which is critical based on what I like, my lifes experiences, and my personality. There are tricks that cater to one's personailty. Hence, the puzzle portion is well received. The key is the audience connection, and that must be through your presentation. As for comedy, yes it works, more so for magic than a movie. The drawback in comedy is one's persons comedy may be offensive to another. It is next to imposible to find comedy tha crosses all four basic personality types. Connecting with the audience can be emotional and dramatic. In movies comedy never wins best picture, a drama wins most of the time. So an emotional connection which is done by the way one presents the routine, is presentation because if the powerful added impact on the audience. Terry Evanswood, sat at the edge of the stage and talked one to one with the audience talking about a sensitive issue and the wonderment of magic which enriched his life and others. The music moved into a Disney "Wish Upon a Star" theme where Terry did the snowstorm routine. It was appropriately set-up with a well designed emotional tone and received very well by the audience. Again, the audience makes or breaks your act based on how it is presented, whether it is a comedy act, a kid's show, or a full length illusion show. You must know how it is going to be received and you must design the presentation to be receive the way you intend it to be received. This is presentation in it's finest form.
Dennis Michael
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Paul Menzel Special user Boise, Idaho 530 Posts |
Hm. If we combine the "vehicles of immediate commercialism" with a documentary we end up with..."This is Spinal Tap." How interesting.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist...or didn't want to resist.) Very good points, Tom. |
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Geoff Weber Inner circle Washington DC 1384 Posts |
I am very interested in this topic.. We are all actors trying to create the illusion that we can perform magic... (if this is not your goal, then obviously my comments don't apply to you).. In order to make this a convincing illusion, the magic we perform MUST have a point... Why would we tear up a card, only to restore it a moment later!? We must convey either wordlessly, or through our patter, that we are not satisfied with keeping the card in its destroyed state. Therefore, using magical powers of restoration, now has a point! Why was the card destroyed to begin with? That is for you to decide... perhaps you were explaining to the audience, how cards can get damaged through continual usage... perhaps you were trying to fit the card into a container that was only one fourth the size of it... no matter the case, you must convey that leaving the card in this state is unacceptable... and the use of magic to restore it is the only option.. (or scotch tape)
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Well put, Geoff!
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Stephen Long Inner circle 1481 Posts |
Much to the irritation of those who would disagree with me, I still do not share this view.
Where is your motivation for taking the deck out of its box? Presumably to show the audience magic. Why may we not tear up a card for exactly the same reason? I remember long ago seeing David Copperfield take a spectator's ring, perform a beautiful vanish of it, and then find it again a few moments later inside the rose on her table. He was silent throughout; no presentation was spoken or implied because it didn't have to be. He was focused so intently on the magic that was happening and, as a result of this, the spectator was equally as focused on the magic. Was she still astonished? Of course. Who wouldn't be? It was far from reducing the magic to a puzzle. It was far from saying "look what I can do and you can't". It was a case of sharing something amazing with an audience. What is wrong with that?
Hello.
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Stephen Long writes: "Where is your motivation for taking the deck out of its box?"
Exactly my point! Unless you have one, spoken or implied, then leave the poor thing in the box and go make popcorn or something! As for the Copperfield ring to rose bit, the movtivation is fairly obvious -- a flirtatious, love story. But apparently not obvious enough. |
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Seance Elite user Talking on the other side with 427 Posts |
Stephan,
Nothing wrong with that. But that was one routine in the context of the show. DC has a mixture of silent as well as talking routines. All of it is done logically to entertain without jarring the expectations of viewers. I like to think of this as "blocking" in stagecraft. The actor(s) figure out during rehearsals with the director where to be during a scene in the play or movie. The location must be logical, yet have meaning for the actor(s) being in that spot! We are discussing the same thing here. Why does a magician do something with his hands at a certain time, or say something at a particular location where he is presenting the effect? I say, to enhance the presentation in a logical way. |
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Stephen Long Inner circle 1481 Posts |
Quote:
As for the Copperfield ring to rose bit, the movtivation is fairly obvious -- a flirtatious, love story. Quite. Forgive my ignorance. Although I fail to see exactly where the narritive you speak of is located in the aforementioned effect. Love is certainly the theme, but I'm not sure as to whether theme and presentation are completely interchangeable. Perhaps not. Quote:
I like to think of this as "blocking" in stagecraft. The actor(s) figure out during rehearsals with the director where to be during a scene in the play or movie. The location must be logical, yet have meaning for the actor(s) being in that spot! Point well made, Seance. I am claiming that the "meaning" of which you speak may be simply that the performer wishes to amaze his audience. Allow me to state my case as plainly and simply as I can. I am not saying "down with presentation". I adore a good presentation. Ninety-five per cent of the stuff I perform will have (what I hope is) a good, logical, well structured presentation. I am arguing for the other five per cent. And my argument goes like this: Experiencing magic is such a unique experience by its very nature that it is often the case that it needs no reason for being other than to do what it was intended to do: to amaze and astonish. I am saying that it is okay for magic to exist for its own sake rather than have a reason for its existance attatched to it by the performer. I am saying that there are times when I need no motivation to perform any given effect in magic other than the motivation that I want to share something amazing with my audience. Something amazing! Register that for a second. Something that will (in a Harris-esque kind of way) remind the audience of what it felt like to be a child. How rare is it that people experience those kinds of emotions. Geoff and Peter have both written that if I want to tear and restore a card I need both reason to tear it up and to put it back together. All I am saying is that I find there nothing wrong with explaining, "I am tearing this card up because I want to share something amazing with you now..." This is all I have been saying all along. And this is my view of magic at this point in my life. Though it may be ripped to tiny pieces, thrown to the coffee-stained floor of the Cafe, and partied on by those who disagree, it will nevertheless stand as what I believe to be true. With respect for all your opinions, Stephen.
Hello.
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Geoff Weber Inner circle Washington DC 1384 Posts |
Stephan... I'm not saying that its wrong.. I'm just saying that its pointless. I could make an apple glow... its certainly not normal for an apple to do this... therefore, should I assume the audience will be entertained and impressed? They may not know how the apple is glowing, but I doubt they will really care either. But suppose I put this effect into a context where it has a point... like I am hungry, and its dark, and I can't find the apple... then it starts to glow... Ah! there it is! Magic has saved the day! Don't underestimate the power this will have on your audience. Showing them something that they don't know how to do is one thing... putting it into a meaningful context, is a magic all of its own.
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Matt Graves Special user Huntsville, Alabama (USA) 504 Posts |
I'd like to approach this from a little different angle. I have a _lot_ of trouble finding a way to put meaningful things into my magic that are still entertaining. Not that I haven't tried a couple. Think about David Copperfield's story he did on the Statue of Liberty special, about the woman who couldn't have children and adopted all these kids. Well, personally, I loved it. I'm sappy. But I've heard people say that that part of the show got very low ratings . . . all the people changed channels when that part came on.
So my question is this: What are some magic effects that really have depth and meaning? I haven't found many at all, not in Eugene Burger's books, not even in Paul Harris's books. It's really depressing. People clamor for meaning in magic tricks, but I can't find any examples. Maybe the actual vanish of the Statue of Liberty - now I have to admit, _that_ had meaning. Just think how close the statue may have come to being destroyed last September . . . but in general magic, I don't see anything really deep. Even things that Eugene Burger does, like making a pentagram imprint itself on a card, are really just all in good fun. Is there anything wrong with that? Anyway, if anyone can give me some examples of this much-searched-for deeper meaning to our magic, please do. I'm not just challenging everyone for no reason . . . I'd really like to see some of it, if it exists. |
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