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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
Does anyone other than me find it strange that there are so may people who buy a Svengali deck and a year or two later are writing books or doing a lecture at a magic convention?
To compound this problem, some of these products and lectures are reviewed favorably! Where else but in our art and bagging groceries can a person be considered an expert after only three years experience? It makes no sense. On another board I recently had a run in with a guy who wrote a book on a subject I have some first hand knowledge of. I was smack dab in the middle of his target demographic. I bought the book and tried to apply the work it contained and I failed miserably. I went to someone I consider an expert on all things magic and asked him what I was doing wrong. He said I was using the wrong book. I said, “How could this be the wrong book? All of the big reviewers said it was great.” He said, “What do they know about that type of magic?” My answer was, “next to nothing”. My pal then asked me how long the guy who wrote the book had done the work. My answer was, “three years”. He grinned and then handed me a book written by a guy who had 30 years experience. A book those same big deal reviewers tore apart like a Rottweiler going after a rag doll filled with a T-Bone. I took the book home and read it. I saw all the things I was doing wrong almost immediately. All of the wrong things I learned from the other book. It was an eye opener. I took the information and applied it. I was reward financially the first time out. I felt kind of scammed. Not by the author, but by the guys I trust to review these things. Why didn’t they see the same thing my friend did? The author of the not so good book truly believes he has written, “The Master Work” on the subject. He told me so himself. He puts himself above all the guys who have been doing this type of work for decades. In public he often insults these same people whose material he referenced in the book he bases his success on. It amazes me, and it is not uncommon. It floored me when I counted the number of people in our industry who have done the same thing. I am not talking about the guys who have done the real work and sell us products. Guys like Ammar, and Daryl, have years of experience and boatloads of skill to back up the things they sell us. Another fellow told me a story about going to a lecture. The lecturer was giving a dissertation on the three card monte. When an audience member asked him why he used a solid back design (Bees) the lecturer said he used them because Doc Eason used them. He had no idea why one was better than the other. This same guy has written a booklet on the three card monte. I don’t know why we put up with it. What do you think? "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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RiffClown Inner circle Yorktown, Virginia (Previously Germany) 1579 Posts |
You can't judge a book by it's cover but you can judge a writer's works by their experience. I buy magic books, videos, etc based on the writer and the reputation they have in the magic community. You're right; a Svengali does not a magician make. It never hurts to ask a second opinion of someone you trust.
The opinion of a critic is often influenced by the owners of the work themselves. Trust what you know by someone you trust. I use the Svengali and the mirage decks quite a bit. In trained hands they defy logic and blow away the laymen. I'll keep mine thank you. This topic is not about the Svengali but about the unschooled attempting to teach in order to make a buck. I (and I suspect Danny Hustle) was merely pointing out that a Svengali Deck or maybe even the DeLand's are typically the first trick decks owned by many hobbyist and aspiring magi alike. His point: Buying a Svengali doesn't make one a magician. Only practice and patience make a magician. You should always judge a person by their works not by their words.
Rob "Riff, the Magical Clown" Eubank aka RiffClown
<BR>http://www.riffclown.com <BR>Magic is not the method, but the presentation. |
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
Rob is right about my post. The Svengalli can be a jaw dropper in the hands of a skilled magi. It is also one of the most abused of our secret devices.
Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Fredrick Loyal user Seattle 248 Posts |
Danny,
Your post is an interesting view. I have to say right up front that these are strictly my opinions and do not reflect the opinions of any sane person Magic seems to be growing as an advocation and vocation - which I find to be great for the art. But what concerns me is that due to a variety of reasons, it is perceived as a low art where one can excell in a short period of time. Ads for products that state tag lines like "easy to master" "no practice necessary" and even the product line of "EZ magic" all add to this... Compounding this is the home desktop publishing is making it easy to put out a product that looks good, but as you say, looks can be deceiving.... These two factors combined that some do not want to think or do the research finds us being bombarded with material that is, at best, second rate. We have a choice. We can vote with our wallets. If we carefully evaluate a product or offering, ask friends and associates that we trust and honor their opinion, and perhaps if we are lucky have a trusted dealer friend, then we are able to make educated purchases. If the products and offerings go unsold, then perhaps the author will get the point.
"Try to find the humanity in the magic and maybe you'll come up with something of your own. It's the humanity that gets you there, not techniques." Michael Moschen on Creativity
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Danny-
Wow, are you ever a man after my own heart! Anyone who has ever read my articles in Smoke and Mirrors or Visions will already know that I'm with you on this one! There are a few RARE cases where someone with a couple of years experience should be writing a book on magic, but they are RARE! IMO after three years experience in magic, you should just be starting to charge for your shows, let alone be writing books on it! Some will accuse me of not practicing what I preach, but they don't know the facts. I have been performing since 1978. My first paid show was in 1983. I wrote my first book in 2000, 22 years after I started! I was lucky to have mentors who explained to me that it's better to be patient and really understand the art and craft of magic before trying to make a buck off it. It shows an appreciation for the art (both of magic and of writing) and the audiences and readers, and it makes you a better performer and writer. Go, Danny! You, go, boy!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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John Smetana ???? - 2009 499 Posts |
Hey Danny,
Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! You are so right in your very astute observation. If only more people would think the way you do. Continued success Danny, magic needs more guys like you. Best thoughts, John Smetana |
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WR Special user Utah 945 Posts |
I too agree with Scott and John. I have some GREAT effects but not enough experience to write a book. I have gotten books and Videos that were crap! Plain and Simple. And some that are well worth, if not more,their weight in gold.
I am by no means on the same level in magic as Scott or John (or Drayl, Banacheck, Eugene poinc etc...) This is just my opinion. most magically yours, WR
"Tell Em WR sent Ya."
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Thoughtreader Inner circle Calgary, Alberta, Canada 1565 Posts |
Danny,
You are so correct in your post. Where else can someone go and plunk down $50 at a magic shop then go next door to the printer and have business cards printed saying they are a "magician". As for "experts", the internet has opened up a whole new "instant expert" arena that really is enough to make you want to retch. I am constantly amazed at some of this dipwads that call themselves pro's as well as the ones that cannot be bothered to really learn the art of magic. They can't be bothered to learn it's history or everything, they want to limit themselves to specific little niche's and yet claim to be "magicians". And then they don't see how their behaviors are driving the REAL secrets, back into an "underground", which I know that you are more than aware exists. My prediction is that in the next ten years, magic is going to fall by the wayside once more, the same as it did in previous era's. PSIncerely Yours, Paul Alberstat |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
The "demise" of magic has been predicted again and again over the years.
I recall the late Charlie Miller writing in Genii years ago about "magic taking a leap towards oblivion." And this was just before Doug Henning, David Copperfield, Lance Burton, David Blaine, et al. exploded onto the scene. Enough, already! Magic has survived the good, the bad, and the ugly for thousands of years. Is anyone so presumptuous today to think that they can forecast the future of this art form? Well, apparently so; but they are wrong! Paul Alberstat asks: "Where else can someone go and plunk down $50 at a magic shop then go next door to the printer and have business cards printed saying they are a "magician"." Well, just about anywhere; if I want to buy a clarinet, a trampoline, or a whip and chair there is no law that says I can't advertise myself as a musician, gymnast, or lion trainer. The public, however, will find out very quickly that I am not. And so it will be with the wannabe "magician". Simon Lovell has pointed out that even "fetuses are writing books today." Sad but true. However, the worst part is that so many new performers or would-be performers believe these half-wits and pass up the older and more valuable books in favor of the latest "flavor of the month" magician. Anyone who buys a book or video from someone who has been performing publicly for less than, say, 20 years is throwing his or her money away. And anyone who writes a book of makes a video without performing for more than, say, 20 years is a con artist. It's that simple! |
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Dave Egleston Special user Ceres, Ca 632 Posts |
I love this type discussion - I know this forum has a high level of sensitivity (no offense meant) but this is precisely why a forum can be a powerful ally to those of us who hate to waste money -
Please name those whom you think not worthy of our hard earned dollars - an intelligent well written criticism shouldn't be personally agressive nor character slandering (though that can be fun) When I get a bad meal at a local diner - I make sure my friends know about it - But I also make sure the person in charge of the diner knows about it - Most of the time the owner is interested in making his product better and more desirable Now, I've been lucky in the 13 years that I've been associated with magic - I can only think of 7 or 8 books I bought, that were "dogs" out of 350 books - I've found if you stick with tried and true publishers - You pretty much know what you're getting - BUT - you have to take a chance on some of the "off broadway" items - because that is where some of the true diamonds in the rough are - if you've found a lump of coal - Broadcast it!! Dave |
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-10-05 00:06, Peter Marucci wrote: Peter, this is not the worst part in my case. In the specific case that put me in a twist the crappy book by Johnny come lately was reviewed well by a guy who has been doing the real work for over 30 years himself! He also tore apart the book that contained the real work by the guy who had been out there doing it for 30 years. His reasoning? The guy with the crappy book was a pro writer and his book was well laid out. It contained very little practical information but had the proper credits and references for it. The guy with the wisdom was a magician and not a pro writer. There was some misspelling and dangling participles. The book was therefore lambasted. After rereading the reviews I don't think anyone was interested in which book was a better tool to learn from. This to me was the crying shame. It's one thing to be new to magic and not know any better. It is another to be a real worker and to shoot down or build up a book because of spelling and not content. I dunno, it just really tcked me off when I figured out I'd been had. Best, Dan- Quote:
On 2002-10-05 14:32, corporate devil wrote: If you read some of my other recent posts it shouldn't be hard to put it together. "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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TiendaMagia Regular user Spain 134 Posts |
I don´t really think that time is guaruanty of quality or it is either a sure sing of con art in the other.
There may be a guy who just after 2 years of study magic writes a good book and there may be other who after many years write crap certainly the last is very true. But in generaL I agree that 2 years of experience are nothing in magic and that also the years of study before being more than 25 years old don´t count really much. This is my opinion ..I know many people will disagree on this(specially those under 25)..but I myself study magic since I was 12 and now that I am 28 I realized that I just started to study seriously magic after I was 25 .It doesn´t means that before that you don´t learn but maduration in magic comes very slowly I think.
Cordially
Mariano Sosa Magic Store in Europe http://www.tiendamagia.com Foro de magia en Castellano! www.magiapotagia.com |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
When it comes to movies, there are only a few reviewers I will believe and most I will not pay attention to. I have one for Sci-Fi movies, and one for Drama, and one for Comedy because they are accurate to me. What they said was good was good to me, and what was bad was also bad to me.
The same applies to magic books. Many times, reviewers want to be nice and don't want to trash others. One of my best sources of information is here on this Magic Cafe when it comes to information. Then there are about 7 magicians I trust explictly, when I ask for their advice on something or an effect or trick. This works for me to minimizing buying trash or worthless things. Age is not necessary the best criteria, not 30 years in the business. My best source is asking others whose opinion I trust, like my movie reviewers.
Dennis Michael
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Fredrick Loyal user Seattle 248 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-10-05 20:11, DenDowhy wrote: Dennis, Apologies for taking some liberties with your posting, but since movie reviewers are quoted somewhat out of context, I felt the liberties were justified. In all seriousness, I feel you have hit the nail on the proverbial head. When I attended Master Class, Eugene Burger said to me (and the others in the class), "you have to decide who are you going to listen to..." For me, this is a short list. There are people who have an opinion, I dearly value. I listen to the others, but if I listened to all of them, I would go nuts. As mentioned above, you need to develop relationships with people you trust and value their opinion.... ...but you better make sure that one of the people you listen to is you...
"Try to find the humanity in the magic and maybe you'll come up with something of your own. It's the humanity that gets you there, not techniques." Michael Moschen on Creativity
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Donny Orbit Special user 944 Posts |
After reading everyones post, I have realized a few things. First, it is hard for someone who has never written a book on magic or performances to write a book and have it accepted by other magicians, unless it is endorsed, or backed by someone who has been in the business for a while. Someone could perform in a restaurant or at parties for around 10 years, and never be seen by another magician. That doesnt mean that he doesnt have the experience or the knowledge to write a good book, it just means that know one in the industry has seen what he is capable of.
It almost seems that to get accepted as a good author you have to have a mentor who has their foot in the proverbial door of the magic world who can speak on your behalf. Even if you perform for a room full of magical veterans, if none of them take you under their wing, it is still going to be hard to convince others of your creativity and ability. Myself, I have never had a mentor, even though I have wanted one. It seems like the majority of the magicians I have come across do not want to extend a helping hand to further my knowledge of the art. They almost act as though I am trying to move in on their territory. Seeing the view points on this strain have made me decide to hold off on trying to get some of my effects published, simply because I am an unkown in the magic community. Hopefully one day I will be able to impress the "higher ups" and be more accepted and not referred to as Johnny Newcomer. Just goes to show you its not what you know, so much as who you know. Kraft |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
If that is the case, just self-publish. That's what I did. I am certainly not famous, but I was able to get some good reviews and sell some books. I was one of those guys you just talked about--been making my living with magic for over a decade (plus doing it part time for years before that), but no one had heard of me.
The thing about self-publishing is that, once word gets out a little bit, if the offering is worthy, it WILL sell at least a fair number of copies.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Kraft,
Now wait a minute...If you have an effect and a trick and wait...someone else might just stumble across it so get your feet wet. If is is good, you'll find out fast, if not well, try again. There is a difference in a book and an effect. Some authors are know to have 300-400 shows a year and write a book. My personal judge of character of the author comes when he writes something I know he is "dead wrong" about. He still may have some good ideas, but caution is now triggered. I begin to question the validity of other stuff before I accept what I read. Yes, I put books down and refuse to watch videos, if the author/producer is way off base numerous times, from my perspective. In magic, even the experts can be wrong. What is not right for them may be right for you. Well, you've heard, Kevin James can get away with that, or Don Rinkles can say that and get away with it. I have to disagree with your statement about magicians. When I attend my SAM or IBM club, there are more critiques than one really needs...The help is there and they have enriched my life. I never met Jeff McBride but I've heard he's very approachable and helpful. Illusionist Terry Eveanswood bends over backwards to help fellow magicians, so does, Denny Hanny from Denny and Lees. Now these three are in differnt part of the country and they are all helpful. I've gotten excellent advice from Steve Taylor, BJ Hickman, Simon Lovell, Silly Billy, David Ginn, Samual Patrick Smith, Trixie Bond, Steve Heart, Barry Mitchel (Jack Chanin) Bob Little, Fred Mitchel, Ron Geoffries, and the list goes on and on. Magicians love to help out other magicains. Look no futher than here on this cafe at the thousands willing to share their experiences, and advice both good and bad.
Dennis Michael
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Donny Orbit Special user 944 Posts |
I appreciate a plae like this were everyone can get together and share advice. I have never been to any major conventions, and maybe that is where I am going wrong. I have talked to a few magicians around my are from the time I was about 16 on. It just seemed they were never willing to mentor, unless you bought a book or an effect from their magic shoppe. If they didnt work at the shoppe, they werent even willing to talk magic for fear of losing their gig to you. O thank heavens for The Magic Cafe!
Kraft |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
HI Kraft,
I do not think that you are commpletly correct in your summary. If you write a good book or routine word will get around. regardless of how well known you are or inorsments that you recieve. after all the indorsments will come once people have the book and enjoy it. I live an a far out region of Wales Uk and I see magicians a few times a year at tops. I work for lay audiences almost exclusivly. Paul Hallas gave me some advise a while back and I will pass it to you. ........Contribute to magic Magazines as this is a very good way of letting other magicians to know of you and the quality of your effects . Phillip |
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Donny Orbit Special user 944 Posts |
Thanks Phillip. Ill send out some of my stuff and see if I cant get it to "run" in a few magazines. To bad Apocolypse isnt still around. Any recommendations as far as which magazines to send it to?
thanx Kraft |
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