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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » Ancient kind of pouch (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Yfirum
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Hi folks.
I was thinking for a while about going "back to the roots" pouch wise. Which means that I want to build a pouch that is worn like these ol' ancient magicians wore it. This means one bag hanging on one side of my hip fixed to my body with a ribbon which is running to my opposite shoulder (bag on right hip, ribbon running over left shoulder).
Has anyone any experience with this kind of pouch? I just can't imagine that I'm the first one to have this idea...

thanks
yfirum
Dave V
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Who are these ol' ancient magicians? I know only of the ones who kept their pouch in the front. I have a hip pouch for walking around at Ren Faires, but it's poorly positioned to be of any use other than a storage device. If I wanted to use it, I'd rotate it to the front. This is not an unusual position as it was quite common for workers/vendors to have an "apron" or pouch worn that way.
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Roland Henning
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Old lithographies show, that indeed the old pouches were on the side. I use this old technique personally. If the bag is big enough you can have all your stuff there. I have my linking rings, all stuff for the cups and balls... (For the final loads you don't have to change the handling too much. Feels a bit like loading from the pockets.)

Really important is to keep the bag open. I have metal springs attached to the opening of the bag.

Yes it works and it doesn't look like having an ass in front of you.

What it looks like can be seen here:
http://www.magicvideodepot.com/view.php?a=v&t=5197

mmG Roland Henning
Werner G. Seitz
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If I'm not entirely mistaken, does Jeff Sheridan also use that type of shoulderbag, containing all his props.
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Dave V
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Roland,
Very nice ring work!

What Yfirum didn't clarify was his intended use for the pouch. I see yours more as a carrying device, not really as a pouch as I understand it(Cellini, Gazzo, etc...) but I could be wrong. (Hey, it can happen... I thought I was wrong one time before... but I was mistaken.)
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Bill Palmer
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I have seen engravings and woodcut showing bags on the left, bags on the right and bags in front. If you read Natürliches Zauberbuch you get the impression that the bag went on the front, and then was perhaps moved to the side to get it out of the way.

Bosch's painting is of little use. He is not portraying an actual conjurer, but an allegory. He also uses a basket, not a bag. In my own use, I had two pouches, one on each side near the front. I found this to be best for my use.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Whiterabbit
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I tend to use a pouch on the side all the time. It's large, has a big stiff leather opening so it's always open (which if it's deep enough isn't a visibility problem) and has enough space for me to palm in without talking.

I use it mainly as a container, but the opening is big enough for me to ditch in if I have to and there's something soft in the bottom. There's also a false pocket in the back which is difficult to see unless you take it off. I thought I'd use it to ditch in at the time, but I mainly use for notes nowadays.

Hope this helps.

I meant was that the hidden pocket at the back was used for money rather than ditching as it just wasn't practical for anything else.

Sorry for any confusion. I'll go and sleep this wordweariness off now.
May your fingers never lose their deftness,

May your tongue always lead them down the garden path...



Regards,



Whiterabbit
Werner G. Seitz
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I'm really in doubt re what to think Smile

Thing is, that my impression is, a such 'bag' (large one) with a shoulder strap as originally mentioned, is very practical for a streetperformer, because it can contain his whole little act, rope, Chinese Linking Rings, C&Bs, lots of stuff.

The Frontpouch however is practical for the Final loads and also for a bit smaller stuff to carry, NOT for the *Rings*..

Somehow the solution Cellin has finally arrived at, after many years of real work on the street, the special trousers with suitable pockets for the Final loads, seems to be the best, probably combined with a shoulderbag to carry the props..

BUT note, today he has to carry a large piece of luggage on wheels for the rest of the equipment .
Also-but this goes for most streetworker doing the C&Bs- one has to carry the table

Maybe a good solution (I'm not sure) really would be the *large* bag with shoulderstrap, that could be moved in front of the body and worn as a pouch, though it might be too heavy.

Jeff Sheridan does remove his bag and place it on the ground..

Apart from when doing the C&Bs, I actually think it would be 'practical' for a streetperformer NOT to carry a table around and only do stuff that can be worked stand-up..
Stuff like the Rings, Silks, ropes..

Maybe a shoulderstrap bag can be made, where the shoulderstraps can get removed and the bag can get worn in front of the body like a pouch, so it can get taken in use when/before the performance starts..when moving place, it acts as a shoulderbag again..
Thoughts worth to consider ?

I've actually seen -some time back, rather large and cheap shoulderbags here at local stores made of heavy canvas, that looked like the bags earlier used by those ancient magicians, was almost about to buy one.. Smile

PS. The basket in the Hieronymous Bosch painting ( I have a reproduction, original size, hanging right in front of me) is a curiousity, as the basket is so smal, the guy barely can enter the opening with his hand.. Smile )

Note to Bill Palmer:
My old friend Joro (Bruno Hennig) has some great pictures in his book *Joro's Becherspiele* as well as in his *Kleines Becherspiel Kompendium* re ancient pouches (Gaukeltasche, worn at the side) and even a tutorial re how to 'sew' ones own pouch, he's a handyman and always makes all of his equipment himelf..there are even instructions re 'how to' make those ancient final load balls, those with multicoloured sections.
(You should have booth books in your collection..it shows a lot of diff. cups with pictures aso from diff. performers/makers, he's a C&B buff and collector too)
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Bill Palmer
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I do have Kleines Becherspiel Kompendium. I'm supposed to translate it sometime. I called Joro to get his permission, and he recalled seeing me at Let's Go Magic! in 1992. He even remembered my book test.

I would like to find a copy of the other book. If you know where I can get one, please let me know.

The thing about that basket in the Bosch painting is that it has the owl peeking out of it. Some of the American researchers think the owl is a symbol of wisdom. They are not familiar with the Schlaraffen!
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-04-14 03:15, Bill Palmer wrote:
I do have Kleines Becherspiel Kompendium. I'm supposed to translate it sometime. I called Joro to get his permission, and he recalled seeing me at Let's Go Magic! in 1992. He even remembered my book test.
Great, then you have seen the great pictures of all the cups, great quality pictures I might add.

Quote:
On 2005-04-14 03:15, Bill Palmer wrote:
I would like to find a copy of the other book. If you know where I can get one, please let me know.
Well, that could be a tough one to locate, but I'll give some 'tips'..

Most of the contents though is used in the Kleines Becherspiel Kompendium, the Joro's Becherspiele though is well worth to own too, it was published by *The magic Hands* from Herrenberg -they have closed the bizz- in 1981, is of DIN A 4 format and has 40 pages, incl. lots of actually better drawings then in his book.

It's no doubt long out of print, but a source would be to ask both of the below mentioned dealers:

http://www.sic-verlag.de/

info@zauberkellerhof.de

One or both might have a copy left...
Also, you can get Joro's phoneno. by PM, if you not have it already to ask him in person.
Whenever you talk with him pls. give him my regards, he's a great guy and I've known him for over 40 years, talked with him at the phone a couple of month back, he visited CPH soley once when he was on a cruise ship performing, that was 1970 and in the midt 1970s my wify and me visited him at his home in Oldenburg...

As you know, he almost doesn't speak a single word of 'english', one of the few things he did regret he never learned, but his 'german' is perfect Smile

PS. Do you have *Das Joro-Buch* too?
BTW, those having searched for that *Cup off rope* which is his invention, and sold as a pirate copy in the states complete with props, actually is decsribed in his C&B book as a bonus Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
swatchel-omi
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Quote:
On 2005-04-13 16:56, Dave VanVranken wrote:
Who are these ol' ancient magicians?


Bill Palmer.

Just look at his picture Smile

Joe
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-04-13 16:56, Dave VanVranken wrote:
I have a hip pouch for walking around at Ren Faires, but it's poorly positioned to be of any use other than a storage device. If I wanted to use it, I'd rotate it to the front.
Dave, one actually 'can' use it positioned at one side, rigth or left, depends on wherefrom you 'grab' your final load(s).

I did mention in this thread a book that of of no value to you in the States, as it is written in 'german', but on one of it's pages it does show how to position a bag/pouch at ones side, and it is positioned perfectly for 'grabbing' final loads with one hand..
It simply is a substitude -a large one- for ones trouserspocket.

As well, it looks great to wear it at ones side..that picture I mentioned shows it all..
I really think it is as good as a front worn pouch, but of course solely accessable for one hand, left or right, normally left, as most 'righthanders' do grab the load(s) using their left hand..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Roland Henning
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Quote:
On 2005-04-13 17:58, Dave VanVranken wrote:
I see yours more as a carrying device, not really as a pouch as I understand it(Cellini, Gazzo, etc...) but I could be wrong. (Hey, it can happen... I thought I was wrong one time before... but I was mistaken.)



Here is a new video, showing the cups and balls. You will see that the handling is a bit different than the handling from a pouch.
http://www.magicvideodepot.com/view.php?a=v&t=5279
Werner G. Seitz
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Great work Roland..you're very good..this is an example *life*...and no doubt these guys where baffled like h*ll.

IF the bag could/was worn a bit lower, it might make the job a bit easier for you..your presentation surpasses any needed 'technic', still, why not make life easíer..
Maybe the strap of the bag simply can be a bit longer and so can get adjusted re when 'working' and probably when just wearing, but why not wear it lower in 'general'..just what crossed my mind when watching...

The example from the Joro booklet I mentioned earlier was wearing the bag around the waist/hip, but I can't se one couldn't wear it using a shouldstrap, the way you do, a bit lower?

The performance, presentation, handling though is flawless and entertaining, exactly right for that kind of venue you are working in..but why not make life easier for you ? Smile
PS. One idea came up..
IF the bag is worn lower and there in case of laods are problems re 'lenght' of the arm to reach the loads way down, why not have an extra comparment in the bag where the bottom of that compartment is *higher' up then the normal 'bottom'.

I admit though there could be smal probs re 2 compartments and reaching inside the correct one, but the solution is, the top lining of the 'low' compartment is lower then the top lining of the 'real' bag with the normal depth..meaning the hand just has to move down close to the body alongst the lining of the 'real' bagdepth to reach the correct/less deep compartment..
Just a thought that popped up.. Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Roland Henning
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Why not lower? There is a simple reason for that. When I put the bag lower the final loads are lower too. And my arms are not long enough to grab them without 'reaching' for them. Everything became easier when I shortend the strap.
It use to be lower and it wasn't easier.

A smaller bag would help, but then again I would be able to put in all of my props, creating the need for another storage device. Even the table fits in the bag.

So I could do the entire act with carrying nothing but the bag.

mmG Roland

I actually have a second compartment to hold the little balls, so I have an instant reset. But then again, I have all the time in the world for the second load, why should a bother? Purist reasons? Hmm, no.
Werner G. Seitz
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That's OK Roland.. Smile

I did edit my posting, so you probably didn't read my thoughts re how to reach the higher up compartment..but I understand..no purist solutions needed, I agree..

Just one other thought I got whilst watching your splendid performance..

When explaining and demoing the 'misdirection' thing and mentioning 'misdirection' -where the ball suddenly appears on top of the cup- why not ask if they want se it to be done by REAL magic..just use 'real magic' as a patterline instead of 'misdirection'..maybe it even would make the appearance of the ball then more 'magical'?

I mean, they don't have to 'know' about 'misdirection' and probably not even understand the 'meaning' of it ?
Just a thought Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Roland Henning
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Werner, I used to do that. The current presentation play better with my character. Others might get better reaction, when they say 'real magic' but I don't.

My patter is completly character driven and cannot be changed that easy.

I am no magician, I am a trickser.
BerkleyJL
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I love that video Roland! You're fun to watch even though I don't speak a lick of German.
I need a stage name.

Joe Berkley
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-04-15 06:14, Roland Henning wrote:
Werner, I used to do that. The current presentation play better with my character.
That's great Smile ..
I've to bow re you found out the hard way via practical experience..again, great show..

Quote:
On 2005-04-15 09:19, BerkleyJL wrote:
I love that video Roland! You're fun to watch even though I don't speak a lick of German.
That guy is even funny when one understands the language Smile...that's the type of show and 'act' for the street !
Watch out Cellini and Gazzo Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
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